Below is the final of four parts of the appearance by Thilo Sarrazin on the TV program “Talk in Hangar 7” (previously: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3).
The cast of characters: in addition to Mr. Sarrazin and the host, there is a Viennese schoolteacher named Susanne Wiesinger, who has written a book, and an imam named Abdul Adhim Kamouss.
In this final section the imam becomes immensely annoying. His manner is a repellent combination of abrasive and smarmy, to the point where I felt like hitting him upside the head with a poker. Up until these last few minutes Mr. Sarrazin has shown admirable patience, but his irritation breaks through in his final interactions with the imam.
Many thanks to MissPiggy for the translation, and to Vlad Tepes for the subtitling:
Video transcript:
| 00:00 | Here is where the… —How does it work? —Here is where the religious discourse plays | |
| 00:04 | an important role. This religious discourse actually comes from the pulpit. | |
| 00:08 | The pulpits inside the mosque play a huge part. | |
| 00:11 | That is where we, as imams, form the religious opinions, as well as the worldview of our audience. | |
| 00:18 | Therefore not every Tom, Dick and Harry can enter into this arena | |
| 00:23 | to form opinions. —Hold on a second there, it is Allah | |
| 00:28 | that reveals himself to every Muslim. (Sura 41:6) —Don’t interrupt me. —That is total nonsense. | |
| 00:32 | Everyone who is a Muslim has a connection to Allah. | |
| 00:36 | Please let me finish speaking. —Sure. —It is here that | |
| 00:39 | we are responsible for the people. To explain and to help develop | |
| 00:45 | critical thinking. Not that they just listen and obey based on the motto, | |
| 00:49 | “The Holy Man is always right”. —But all of that happens | |
| 00:52 | in the native language, not Arabic? —It does. —The interpretation is in Turkish. | |
| 00:56 | I preach in German, not Arabic. —You preach in German, | |
| 00:59 | and the verses are in Arabic. —I’ve been preaching in German for 17 years | |
| 01:03 | and I develop critical thinking in the members of my audience | |
| 01:07 | to ask questions and not just accept everything that is said | |
| 01:10 | without examination, but rationally test what they have heard. | |
| 01:17 | That is our responsibility. That doesn’t mean we all just obey | |
| 01:22 | what we’re told to do. That’s not the kind of Islam we want. | |
| 01:27 | Mr. Kamouss, just a question, can you agree with me? | |
| 01:30 | You are doing it this way, I think that’s great | |
| 01:33 | and it should be like this, even in German. Your listeners speak in German, not Arabic? | |
| 01:37 | Yes, exactly. —OK, but could you at least agree that that is not the case | |
| 01:41 | in every mosque? —Correct. —For example, | |
| 01:45 | unfortunately in the mosque my pupils attend, only Arabic is spoken, | |
| 01:49 | and they don’t understand one word — especially the boys. | |
| 01:52 | You are right. —They don’t understand. I ask because I am interested, | |
| 01:56 | not because I’m a Quran expert, but I’m | |
| 01:59 | very interested. —He’s not a Quran expert either. —Oh, come on, please stop with the bickering. | |
| 02:04 | Nevertheless, I am familiar with the Quran. —You just read it. —Mr. Kamouss, | |
| 02:08 | if they can’t understand anything because it is in Arabic, but | |
| 02:13 | learn these texts by heart… —It all depends on what their mother tongue is… | |
| 02:18 | Would you at least agree that something isn’t working? | |
| 02:21 | I’m trying to answer. If the children only speak German… | |
| 02:24 | No, they speak Turkish. —Then there should be a hujja | |
| 02:27 | that preaches to them in Turkish and teaches them the religion. | |
| 02:30 | But they don’t understand the Arabic Quran verses; | |
| 02:33 | they’re unable to comprehend what it says. —Just so you know, | |
| 02:36 | every person can learn the message of the Quran, whether | |
| 02:42 | they are Chinese or French —Aha! May I quickly interrupt you | |
| 02:48 | with a question? —Yes. —So when a person can’t read or understand the Quran, the imam or whoever… | |
| 02:56 | There are translations for learning the foundations… —I read a translation! | |
| 03:00 | But you aren’t a trained teacher; | |
| 03:03 | you have Hamed Abdel-Samad as your imam and your teacher. | |
| 03:07 | This man is a bonafide Islam-hater! —I have read | |
| 03:11 | very many books about Islam. —Mr. Kamouss, if you | |
| 03:16 | don’t want to speak, we can end the conversation now. | |
| 03:22 | I wanted to ask a question and you’re talking about Hamed Abdel-Samad. No one here is interested. | |
| 03:25 | Please, go ahead. —I had a specific question and you said | |
| 03:29 | everyone can learn Islam. What you said earlier is interesting, | |
| 03:32 | that imams influence the religious awareness of the people. | |
| 03:36 | Our concept here in the West, is that people teach themselves | |
| 03:39 | their own religion. —That is also my concept. —That’s because | |
| 03:43 | you understand the text. Every person has the right and | |
| 03:46 | the duty to read the text, as Mr. Sarrazin has done, so they can understand. | |
| 03:50 | I will answer. That does not contradict | |
| 03:55 | what I said earlier. When I mentioned that the imams, or | |
| 03:59 | the religious opinion leaders, preach or recite to the listeners, | |
| 04:03 | they aren’t turned into pre-programmed followers. No. | |
| 04:08 | Every person, every Muslim within his own ability, | |
| 04:13 | should think critically, ask questions and be able to criticize and reject | |
| 04:18 | anything because no one is obliged to follow something | |
| 04:23 | they don’t understand. This is the way we go about it with our listeners. | |
| 04:27 | That’s what I say, and it is written in my book | |
| 04:30 | and I’ve emphasized this multiple times. All children and youth, | |
| 04:33 | especially in German speaking-countries, have a deficit. | |
| 04:36 | As you said. Unfortunately it is still not customary to have | |
| 04:42 | German-speaking imams. So I would like to say to them, remain alert, | |
| 04:48 | develop critical thinking and don’t be just followers. | |
| 04:52 | So we’ve understood that you said the religious leader of Islam | |
| 04:56 | and imams are to awaken the Islamic awareness, but now we will go from | |
| 05:00 | the exegesis of the Quran to societal issues. One of the essential social issues, which you also | |
| 05:04 | see as problematic, is the role of woman in Muslim societies. | |
| 05:09 | We’ll take a quick look at a quote from your book. | |
| 05:15 | I have come to the conclusion that the position of women | |
| 05:19 | in the religion of Islam and in Islamic societies is central | |
| 05:22 | to almost everything that is problematic about this religion and | |
| 05:26 | causes the backwardness of Islamic countries. | |
| 05:30 | Mr. Kamouss, I would like to quote something you said during | |
| 05:34 | a preliminary talk you had with a colleague of mine. He asked you | |
| 05:38 | if your wife wears a headscarf. Would she be permitted to go without it? | |
| 05:41 | Yes. —Your answer was no. —That’s incorrect! | |
| 05:44 | That’s incorrect! —I read it… —Then you aren’t working well with one another. | |
| 05:48 | So she is allowed to go out without it? —This question | |
| 05:53 | about my wife was not asked. —Then I read it somewhere else. | |
| 05:57 | Let’s forget it. So, she wears a headscarf? —Why do you begin | |
| 06:00 | with that? Was it inspiration? And you are putting words in my mouth. | |
| 06:04 | We are having a discussion. —He didn’t ask me | |
| 06:08 | this question. And secondly, my wife… —But he asked you about it? | |
| 06:12 | Not about that. My wife wears a head-covering, but if she wants | |
| 06:17 | to stop wearing it — that is her decision. —Does your daughter wear a headscarf? | |
| 06:21 | My daughter is 12 years old and does not wear | |
| 06:27 | a headscarf; she is quite normal. And I would proudly take my wife | |
| 06:32 | without a headscarf to all the events I attend. Full of love, | |
| 06:37 | I would tell everyone this is my wife, as an imam. I respect the idea | |
| 06:41 | that everyone should decide for themselves how to practice | |
| 06:45 | religion, and no one should be forced —I don’t believe in that. | |
| 06:49 | For that reason my book is for Muslims who understand this, | |
| 06:52 | and my message is that they shouldn’t let anyone force them into anything. | |
| 06:56 | Islam should be practiced freely. Not forced. | |
| 07:00 | Mr. Kamouss, then I have another question, I’m asking a lot of questions, but… | |
| 07:04 | I answer gladly, that’s why I’m here. —The girls | |
| 07:09 | who wear a headscarf at our school don’t wear it just for | |
| 07:14 | religious reasons. They aren’t very religious or | |
| 07:19 | mature enough to understand why a women needs to wear a headscarf. They wear one | |
| 07:24 | so they won’t be considered a slut in the eyes | |
| 07:30 | of their fellow students and especially of their own family. | |
| 07:34 | That is your description. You are analyzing something you see. | |
| 07:38 | That is exactly the same pressure in Neukölln. —No, no, Mr. Kamouss… please. | |
| 07:42 | I work with these children. We work and know | |
| 07:46 | these children very, very well and they tell us very many things. | |
| 07:50 | I am just telling you as an imam, children shouldn’t… —Please, | |
| 07:54 | religion doesn’t even play a role. A girl has more worth, is an honorable girl | |
| 08:00 | when she wears the headscarf. —One needs | |
| 08:07 | to engage such situations. —How can you do that? —For these kinds of people, | |
| 08:12 | this has nothing to do with the religion. | |
| 08:17 | It says in the Quran that there should be no compulsion in the religion, | |
| 08:20 | which means in every detail of the religion there is no compulsion. | |
| 08:23 | Also concerning children. And secondly, when they act like this, | |
| 08:27 | it is their own wrong attitude. That’s why I wrote in my book, | |
| 08:31 | what belongs to religion today shouldn’t be a part of it: | |
| 08:35 | Culture, customs, wrong interpretations of certain scholars from certain | |
| 08:40 | historical periods. Therefore, we are attempting to and need to remove the dust | |
| 08:44 | from our religion and filter out what doesn’t belong | |
| 08:48 | to get to the butter, to the nectar. That’s why there are people | |
| 08:52 | like Mr. Sarrazin who take the opportunity to push us down | |
| 08:57 | and label us with what he thinks Islam is. What you have understood | |
| 09:01 | is not even Islam. That was the 180-degree | |
| 09:05 | representation of Islam. Islam is about justice, about women’s rights. | |
| 09:09 | Islam is about women’s rights? —Yes, and I can prove it to you | |
| 09:13 | theologically. —Let’s go into the reality of what happens in society | |
| 09:19 | and then let’s talk about women’s rights. —I will answer. | |
| 09:25 | Not to mention the 15-year-old girls married to their cousins; | |
| 09:30 | that’s why they have to wear a headscarf from the age of 11. | |
| 09:35 | Very good. Thank you. —All of that is part of Muslim society. | |
| 09:39 | I agree with what you are saying, and another thing that you | |
| 09:44 | spread around in your talk shows about the weak economy, | |
| 09:51 | problems and crises in Islamic countries are to blame on Islam. | |
| 09:59 | The Islamic mould creates these problems. I will tell you, | |
| 10:03 | and please reflect on it. Where are the basic values of Islam in | |
| 10:08 | these so-called countries? There are corrupt systems. | |
| 10:12 | Islam is against corruption. These systems violate human rights. | |
| 10:17 | Islam is against the violation of human rights. There are anti-democratic tyrants | |
| 10:21 | and dictators imposed on these countries. Islam is against | |
| 10:26 | that too, even though you’ll be surprised because it doesn’t fit to your presentation of Islam. | |
| 10:31 | Don’t put Islam on the persecution seat. | |
| 10:36 | Instead the corrupt… —In the 1400 years of Islamic history, | |
| 10:41 | there wasn’t a single country that wasn’t | |
| 10:47 | a dictatorship or not ruled by a dictator. Never in the entirety of Islamic history | |
| 10:52 | was there a functioning democracy. | |
| 10:56 | You speak of an 800-year downfall of our Islamic culture. | |
| 11:01 | You know, you see nothing good in our Islamic culture. | |
| 11:07 | Your comparison reminds me of the story of Jesus and his disciples | |
| 11:12 | as they passed by a dead dog. They found a dead dog. | |
| 11:18 | One of the disciples said, “How foul his smell is,” and what did Jesus say? | |
| 11:22 | “What are you talking about? Look how beautiful | |
| 11:25 | his teeth are.” You see nothing beautiful in our culture. That is bad-mouthing, | |
| 11:29 | an ignorance and arrogance on your part. | |
| 11:34 | 800 years ago, it was Islam that brought Europe out of ancient times | |
| 11:39 | into modern times and enlightened it. The Algorithm, | |
| 11:45 | Ibn Sina, Al-Arabi, Al-Kindi — all of them, and I am not dreaming. | |
| 11:52 | Just be thankful that is was the Islamic civilization that ushered in | |
| 12:00 | modern times. —May he speak now? OK? —That was all over in 1250. | |
| 12:05 | That was the period before and was merely knowledge | |
| 12:10 | they had taken from others and passed along. They took it | |
| 12:14 | from the Indians and the Greeks, then we translated it from Arabic. | |
| 12:18 | And since then, for the last 800 years, the Islamic world as far as civilization | |
| 12:23 | and culture are concerned has been rather lifeless. | |
| 12:28 | We are already at the end of the show, just a question. | |
| 12:32 | You used to preach differently. —Yes. —You have a history | |
| 12:35 | of transformation and now you support a liberal Islam, but before that you didn’t. Do you believe | |
| 12:41 | that it could be the remaining hope for Europe, that a liberal form of Islam develops? | |
| 12:45 | Or do you perceive that it is heading | |
| 12:49 | toward this takeover process? —Well, I believe you have | |
| 12:54 | a very liberal and arbitrary relationship to truth, | |
| 12:59 | and that’s what you’ve shown here today. In that sense, | |
| 13:04 | I won’t dispute your change in subjective honesty. | |
| 13:10 | I’m not sure how much of that is tactical adaptation, | |
| 13:14 | and suspect that at least a part of is tactical. | |
| 13:19 | It is all in my heart, but you can’t see into my heart. —I am very suspicious. —Was what | |
| 13:23 | you taught and preached before also in your heart? —In the past, | |
| 13:29 | if you examine my sermons, I never preached hate or exclusion from society | |
| 13:36 | or anything against the security of Germany. My problem was… | |
| 13:39 | But there were followers of your mosque | |
| 13:42 | who ended up with ISIS — you had nothing to do with that? | |
| 13:45 | My listeners are found on a wide spectrum, | |
| 13:48 | from very liberal to very extreme. That is an odd combination. | |
| 13:53 | I appeal to everyone somehow; even I am surprised. | |
| 13:57 | Let me tell you this, I was purely religious back then, | |
| 14:02 | but it was not connected to reality. That was my mistake. | |
| 14:07 | Today, I see that our thinking has a disease and is need of repair. —By “our” you mean Muslims. | |
| 14:17 | Muslims, our thinking as Muslims. We have many diseases | |
| 14:21 | in our worldview, how we see others, how we see the world, in our | |
| 14:25 | religious view and our image of God. How we see our god, the reward, the punishments — all of | |
| 14:33 | these things are construction sites. —What caused the change in you? —Excuse me, what did you say? | |
| 14:38 | What caused the change of heart for you? Was it an enlightenment or something? —What was? | |
| 14:42 | What was the reason you had a change of heart? —The reason? It wasn’t something that happened | |
| 14:47 | between one day and the next. If you are suspicious, you can be that way. | |
| 14:51 | If you read my book, then I would be interested in what you | |
| 14:55 | have to say. So, it didn’t happen from one day to the next. It wasn’t a switch that was flipped. | |
| 14:59 | It was a six-year process. It began with purely personal reasons, | |
| 15:04 | a divorce with four children. I was depressed | |
| 15:10 | and in such despair and mourning, that I only saw doubt and hopelessness. | |
| 15:17 | It made me say, “I’m leaving everything.” | |
| 15:24 | I wanted to examine the difference between love and emotional dependency. To find out | |
| 15:28 | what mourning is, and what depression is and this led me to myself. | |
| 15:33 | Before that, I was always directing my attention towards the outside. | |
| 15:37 | So over the course of time, I was able to come closer to myself. | |
| 15:41 | I came to the conclusion that I was in a tent and had a limited view, | |
| 15:45 | which I thought was the entire world. At that point, I opened myself | |
| 15:49 | to all spiritual learning. —Can we allow Mrs. Wiesinger, | |
| 15:52 | since we have so little time and it’s exactly the situation you describe for your children. | |
| 15:55 | That they are trapped. —Yes. They are trapped, but I’m not going to let you off the hook. | |
| 16:02 | What are we to do when these children aren’t able to experience what you have? | |
| 16:08 | What if they are unable to free themselves or don’t have the education you have? | |
| 16:12 | What do we do with Muslim children who | |
| 16:16 | come out of homes with uneducated parents? | |
| 16:22 | They feel torn, trapped and are sent to conservative radical mosques. | |
| 16:28 | What should we do then as mainstream society? We need to | |
| 16:32 | set a standard as protection for these children, and that is | |
| 16:36 | extremely important for me, Mr. Sarrazin. These children belong to us, they ARE OUR FUTURE. | |
| 16:42 | What we are doing… —What you are doing as a preacher, and | |
| 16:46 | what about the others involved? —Did you hear my presentation? | |
| 16:51 | Actually my question is: what are the chances that Islam in Europe, | |
| 16:55 | where these children live, that Islam might reform? | |
| 17:00 | Well, if you were to have a look at the topics | |
| 17:04 | presented in my book, then you would see the solutions. | |
| 17:08 | Again, what are the chances? —We can teach them. Every individual | |
| 17:12 | has his own learning curve. I had to fall on my head | |
| 17:17 | in order to learn and understand, but not everyone has to, | |
| 17:21 | but they need someone to show them the way. | |
| 17:25 | You haven’t answered my question. Can we enlighten them? | |
| 17:30 | I don’t even want to say that word. How about more tolerant, | |
| 17:35 | liberal preaching, and what are you doing about it? | |
| 17:39 | Teach, teach, teach. I enlighten them, of course. —OK. | |
| 17:44 | Mr. Sarrazin, you weren’t very optimistic, just briefly, in closing, to | |
| 17:48 | highlight the difference. Mrs. Wiesinger says | |
| 17:52 | we need to do something. You suggest we need to curb immigration, | |
| 17:57 | and for those who don’t adapt to our society, | |
| 18:03 | return them to their countries. The parallel societies | |
| 18:08 | must be dissolved, voluntarily or involuntarily. | |
| 18:13 | So what do we do with these young people? —I also say that the reformation | |
| 18:20 | of a religion cannot happen from outside. If I’m not | |
| 18:27 | a Catholic, then I can’t tell the Pope what to do. This is why reforming | |
| 18:34 | Islam, or that’s why only Muslims can determine | |
| 18:42 | what the main content of Islam should be. | |
| 18:47 | Only they can do the reforming. We can’t do this from the outside. | |
| 18:52 | We also learn from you. Help from outside also helps us very much. | |
| 18:56 | So you support reform? —It is even helpful | |
| 18:59 | to have these clashes, because they create a need for reflection | |
| 19:03 | within the Islamic ranks. It is also useful that we receive criticism | |
| 19:08 | from outside, which also leads to reflection. —You mean the book | |
| 19:12 | Mr. Sarrazin wrote helped you too? —No, that doesn’t help me. | |
| 19:16 | That doesn’t help. From a theological standpoint it belongs | |
| 19:21 | in the garbage can. —So I will give the last word to Mrs. Wiesinger. | |
| 19:27 | OK, I actually just wanted an answer from Mr. Sarrazin. | |
| 19:32 | You didn’t answer my question. What do we do with these children | |
| 19:37 | who are already here? You can’t send them anywhere. | |
| 19:41 | No, and I don’t want to deport any children; I never said that. | |
| 19:44 | Besides that, they are either German or Austrian citizens. —We have to have a solution. | |
| 19:47 | We must offer a solution, but at the same time have requirements. —What will we offer? | |
| 19:56 | I suggest the solution and the requirement are the same. | |
| 20:05 | No, no. —We must demand that they are open to our system. | |
| 20:11 | In schools, we offer them what is required learning | |
| 20:17 | in our system and then we demand they do what is required. | |
| 20:26 | But we need a structure. May I just finish with Mr. Sarrazin? | |
| 20:36 | I have thought a long time about this. What is provided | |
| 20:40 | is the requirement. In other words, we are saying, | |
| 20:44 | when you perform to the best of your intellectual ability and make an effort, | |
| 20:49 | then you are one of us. —That can’t happen when | |
| 20:54 | these children grow up in ghettos. —This means that they | |
| 20:59 | need to come out of these ghettos and in some cases be removed | |
| 21:04 | from their families. Of course they all go to an Islamic school | |
| 21:11 | and there they don’t wear a headscarf. The teacher | |
| 21:18 | even goes with 15-year-old girls to a disco and they stay until midnight. | |
| 21:23 | The parents must accept it, because it all belongs | |
| 21:28 | to their cultural education. —I’m really sorry, but our time is up. | |
| 21:32 | I would like to give you my book as a present. —Thank you. —If this isn’t working for you, | |
| 21:35 | then we’ll just stop. Thank you for your patience throughout this discussion. | |
| 21:40 | Thank you to Mrs. Wiesinger, and the gentlemen aren’t listening, anyway. Have a nice evening, | |
| 21:43 | and until next Thursday’s Talk in Hangar 7. |
Miss Piggy and Vlad, have you recovered from those hours of work? I couldn’t even stand through watching it live. I bring out a toast to your health tonight.
It is a bit difficult to stomach this disingenuous imam. He proclaims, in the context of wearing a hijab, that it is up to the individual woman to decide, and cite’s the Meccan Mohammad’s words that there is no compulsion in religion. But the hijab is mandated by the Koran. For example, Koran 33:59 states:
“O Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and believing women to draw their veils (cloaks) close unto themselves. This is better so that they may be recognized (as modest women) and therefore not be molested and Allah is much-forgiving and merciful.”
This is not an advisory, but is certainly revealing of the character of Moslem men.
Perhaps 24:31 is more direct:
“And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers …”
When believing women are told to do something in Islam, they better do it!
This imam is a liar.