The following panel discussion from Italian TV aired in 2009. It concerns the EU’s “Lautsi v Italy” ruling of November 3, 2009 against crucifixes in classrooms (which was eventually overturned in a later EU court decision.
The two primary antagonists in this clip are Vittorio Sgarbi (the presenter, a.k.a. “referee”) and Isabella Cazzoli of the UAAR (Union of Rational Atheists and Agnostics). Our old friend Alessandro Meluzzi is one of the panelists.
I must say that I am not enamored of the referee’s bullying of the atheist. She is mild and reasonable, and his hectoring makes the opposing position look bad. But maybe Italians consider all this just the normal give-and-take of a heartfelt conversation…
Many thanks to Elle Bowlly for the translation, and to Vlad Tepes for the subtitling:
Video transcript:
| 00:00 | [Strasbourg Court has ruled: Crucifixes out of schools; is it just?] Isabella (Cazzoli) of the national union of rational atheists and agnostics (UAAR), |
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| 00:04 | this was a victory instead, for you. —Well, for sure. We promoted this cause so we can’t help but | |
| 00:10 | be satisfied. The only disappointment was that we had to resort to appealing to the EU. | |
| 00:18 | According to us, the Constitution is secular; schools are public, therefore it should naturally be | |
| 00:27 | [Isabella Cazzoli (UAAR: Union of Rational Atheists and Agnostics)] FOR EVERYONE. That means that it shouldn’t discriminate —Excuse me, are you telling me that |
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| 00:33 | a crucifix is discriminatory? —Of course it is! —From which point of view? —Because it’s | |
| 00:38 | a symbol of the Catholic religion —But do you know that there’s a Christian majority in Italy? | |
| 00:44 | It’s CHRISTIAN! Christianity! —It’s not about Catholicism at all. —This was said by the EU Court. | |
| 00:47 | —Unbelievable! —Catholicism has got nothing to do with it. —to which we appealed —Unbelievable. | |
| 00:51 | It’s just Christian. —I’d like to remind you that 60 years ago, we signed the EU convention on | |
| 00:58 | human rights so…—Why are you smiling, Sgarbi? —I’m smiling because I’d like to ask the kind | |
| 01:03 | Ms Atheist who Vittorino da Feltre is —This is of no importance! | |
| 01:08 | I don’t want to give in to your polemic. | |
| 01:16 | I’m not trying to instigate. Do you know who Vittorino da Feltre is? —No, I don’t who he is. | |
| 01:20 | You’re as ignorant as a goat! This is the point! —No, I’m not here to… —You’re an ignorant goat! | |
| 01:24 | —She doesn’t know. —Because if you, like that father who covered his face… | |
| 01:32 | [Does the crucifix in classrooms limit the freedom of those who don’t believe?] He covered his face because he’s afraid. —Of what!? Are Christians renowned for killing, |
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| 01:37 | setting bombs off and being terrorists!? Is it the practice of Christians!? —Nope. —What is Christ? | |
| 01:43 | Christ is a victim! One who was killed! —We don’t care. —Not one who killed! | |
| 01:49 | We don’t care about this —The Muslims who set off bombs in Madrid, who fought against | |
| 01:56 | Christianity with violence…THEY are dangerous! Not Christians who don’t kill anyone! | |
| 02:03 | They kill no one! —Then do you… —And Christ is a victim! —So you want to… —A victim! | |
| 02:08 | What I’m telling you is…since you need to defend… Who’s Vittorino da Feltre? Respond. | |
| 02:14 | First off, I’m not here to be interrogated by you! —And I am not here to listen to an ignoramus | |
| 02:18 | who doesn’t know what she’s talking about! You’re ignorant! —Well, you are offensive and rude. | |
| 02:21 | You can’t talk about what you don’t even know! —Exactly, I didn’t, as a matter of fact. | |
| 02:25 | I’m not making anything up. —You made some statements… —I made statements that are true. | |
| 02:30 | No! They’re not because… —Because the Constitutional Court has already… —What’s the | |
| 02:34 | Constitutional Court got to do with anything? —It does! —It’s all the son of ignorance! | |
| 02:38 | Yours and that of the Court! The Court is as ignorant as a goat! Like you! | |
| 02:42 | I’d start with Benedetto Croce though. —You’re talking nonsense. —YOU are, as you’re not replying. | |
| 02:48 | You come here being ignorant. —So you think that the judges of the Constitutional Court | |
| 02:53 | are seven imbeciles who are drunk on secularism? —What’s this got to do with it, I’m more | |
| 02:57 | secular than you are! —I don’t know that. —And I don’t de-baptise myself! —What about de-baptising!? | |
| 03:01 | De-baptising matters. —Tell me who Vittorino da Feltre is! —We have a drainage campaign… | |
| 03:05 | Tell me who he is! —What is it you want!? —Who is he!? —What we call “draining”…—Tell me! | |
| 03:09 | I don’t care about what you’re asking me —If you don’t know what you’re talking about, | |
| 03:12 | Why are you here!? —I don’t care. I’m here to discuss crucifixes in [classrooms]… | |
| 03:15 | You talk about stuff you don’t know! —WE care about history! History! —You don’t even know what | |
| 03:18 | “atheist” means! You don’t! An atheist is not someone who is AGAINST God! —Right | |
| 03:24 | He’s not AGAINST God! He’s one WITHOUT God! He doesn’t give a crap about God! —Of course. | |
| 03:30 | Sure —He’s not obsessed with removing Christ! Only you are! Because you’re dogmatic! | |
| 03:33 | The atheist thinks. —You are religious, not atheist! | |
| 03:36 | You believe in your “No-God”! This is the point! | |
| 03:39 | Exactly! That’s the most important point! —Isn’t it obvious!? —Removing crucifixes is not a choice | |
| 03:44 | that says: I’m giving you free rein! It’s a choice! It’s a gambit! You’re allowed | |
| 03:47 | not to believe…—Barbara, I didn’t want to cause a ruckus —Giving an opportunity to all… | |
| 03:50 | In a world where values are lacking, young people… —Alessandro (Meluzzi), excuse me | |
| 03:55 | I wanted to let (unintelligible) intervene —Yes, yes. The referee is not here to cause a polemic. | |
| 03:59 | I just believe that it’s my right to ask a wise person a question. She said that a Christian | |
| 04:06 | school limits the freedom of those who aren’t Christian. | |
| 04:10 | That’s why I asked the question. If you go to | |
| 04:13 | Lyceum Virgilio or Lyceum Tito Livio, you’d say: “Look at this! | |
| 04:17 | I’m forced to go to the Lyceums of people who believed in Mars, Apollo, Venus,” | |
| 04:20 | yet she doesn’t give a damn. Tito Livio and Virgil. | |
| 04:24 | Vittorino da Feltre was a great humanist who wanted to educate the young in culture, | |
| 04:30 | and he did so every day, but AT MASS! And he was against blasphemy! So then, that father | |
| 04:34 | who feels that he’s in danger, why doesn’t he also ask for the name “Vittorino da Feltre” | |
| 04:38 | to be removed!? Which belongs to a great Christian humanist! You should do this too! Put: “I’d like | |
| 04:43 | to dedicate this to Allah or Muhammad” instead if you prefer! When you go to some school that’s | |
| 04:49 | dedicated to a gentleman who has educated the youth in culture, bringing them to mass every day, | |
| 04:55 | and who was against blasphemy, you’d also have to say you won’t let your kids go to that school. | |
| 05:00 | Because Vittorino da Feltre is, according to you, a dangerous Catholic. What’s more: Benigni. | |
| 05:06 | Maybe he’s an atheist, yet he reads Dante. Why don’t you remove Dante from schools? | |
| 05:10 | Or Michelangelo? Or Manzoni? Who educate [unintelligible] that you don’t even know! | |
| 05:15 | Because you’re ignorant! That’s what you are! Ignorant! Atheist my foot! If only you were atheist! | |
| 05:21 | [Strasbourg Court has ruled: Crucifixes out of schools; is it just?] An atheist is one who respects God! Not one who erases Him! —With all due respect: not in public |
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| 05:26 | institutions! —The Christ is a victim! A victim! —Not in public institutions! Not in those! | |
| 05:30 | Public institutions are part of… —Why is the EU University Programme called Erasmus then!? | |
| 05:34 | Alessandro (Meluzzi) —Do you want to cancel 2000 years of Christian culture!? —No. —Excuse me… |
“Do You Want to Cancel 2000 Years of Christian Culture!?”
this is clear appropriation 🙂 and dogmatism
– literacy is a succession (Canaanean – Greek – Latin)
– art is succession (Hellenical – Rennaissance – Gothic/Barocco/Classicist – Modernity)
– science/philosophy is succession (Hellenical – Italian – central European – Universal)
– moral is succession (Babylonian – Judaic – Christian – Enlightenment – Universal)
– religion is succession (Polytheist – Judaic – Christian – Orthodox/Protestant)
religion is only a component of culture, always exploiting polar myths and archetypes, always trying to be synthetic. always craving for hegemony, always failing.
religious thinking is a bridge between pre-logical and modern type of cognition..
.. and we are making last steps on the way from this bridge.
…
And then there is the small possibility that God is real, and that would make the “pre-logical type of thinking” a higly rational and sound, while your utopian “modern type of cognition” – disregarding the reality of divine presence – would be a bad bad news for all those rationally thinking atheists.
By the first real life trouble, God might say:
And the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Did not I deliver you from the Egyptians, and from the Amorites, from the children of Ammon, and from the Philistines? The Zidonians also, and the Amalekites, and the Maonites, did oppress you; and ye cried to me, and I delivered you out of their hand. Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more. Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation.
still the question remains, why to call “Christian” the culture that in every aspect, and so obviously, bigger than Christian.
(oh and I didn’t mention Celtic component. what about Riverdance, how Christian is it?)
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1)The fact that human civilization is very complex is pretty much known. What is important here is that Europe has lost a very important strength being exploited by globalists to take down Western civilization.
2)How exactly do you technically define “universal” , the known universe, with your “rational”and “scientific” thinking mind? Do you have the equation on hand? What sort of society trained you to think this way? Are you even thinking on your own?
3)Those “pre-logic” civilizations appear to be no better or worse than today’s “modern”society, for what passes as logic today among the confused, chaotic, and culturally brainwashed masses today . What passes as your secular “modern cognition” today is leading to your “universal” global communist order.
pre-logic civilizations were much worse than today’s society.
they even did’t know slavery.
captured enemies were being eaten on the spot, sometimes eaten alive.
you present a collection of labels and scarecrows that I simply don’t find relevant.
“universal” global communist order.
🙂
is it Biblical hell or something?
and then –
everyone knows what “rational”and “scientific” means.
everyone who attended maths and physics lessons in school.
you try to make impression that I don’t understand meanings of words, – well, it is up to readers to decide how covincing you are.
it is a bit simplistic way of arguing, just to deny your opponent using keywords, declare things you can’t disprove “globalist communist”, and proclaim yourself a winner.
…
@AY
Your comment on the article seemed to be ignoring the main problem, globalists exploiting the secularisation as well as the Islamization of Europe by a robust religion and you attacked what didn’t need to be attacked – religion/religious thinking and ultimately Christianity. Looking at the mess Western civilization has backed itself into is proof enough “modern cognition” doesn’t seem to be much of an advantage over “pre-logic” and those “last steps” whatever you mean by that. All we are headed for is a collectivist communist state, probably modelled on China. It’s also a bit simplistic on your part as well to use “key” words like religious thinking, without showing any bona fides yourself. ]
@AY
“pre-logic civilizations were much worse than today’s society.
they even did’t know slavery. [who is “they” that didn’t know slavery? Are you saying Romans didn’t own slaves?]
captured enemies were being eaten on the spot, sometimes eaten alive.” [you’re implying ALL “pre-logic” civilizations did that and if so which ones, since you implied the plural]
@AY
“is it Biblical hell or something?” [No. There is no hell except in your own mind. In the pasted descriptions of successions you wasted a lot of time on what is already known but I targeted your use of “moral succession” in particular because it ended with the word “universal” and therefore I asked you what the heck you meant by “universal” which shouldn’t have been so hard to answer.
Amazing (in an awful way). Didn’t think I’d live to see Catholic Italy come to this. No crosses or crucifixes in schools now? Unbelievable, but it’s already happened in Germany (ie, I think the muslims have won thanks to Mutti Stupid Merkel). It’s the thin edge of the wedge and eventually Italy will also be bowing to muslims, unless another hero arises.
Just my opinion and I realize I could be quite wrong (hope so) but after reading german news for over a year I really wonder if the muslims will win this time around. It’s been tried before… and they were driven back to their own territory back then. The only ones holding out, to my knowledge, are Hungary and Poland.
But back then Europe was Christian. I’m not sure what they are now. Because if you don’t believe in anything, you will fall for anything and then have no leg to stand on. It’s a pity.
Plus anyone who has read even a little history of the previous muslim invasions of Europe surely knows that. No history, nothing to fall back on.
After reading AY’s comment, I feel very humble indeed.
in the centre of scientific thinking is objective truth.
I’m not a philosopher, so I give my interpretation of this:
– matter exists
– it is complex and structured, but it follows the principle of “cause and effect”,
– properties of matter are projected on our minds as “evidence”, with the help of rules of logic
– this scheme is universal
in the centre of religious thinking is myth.
– myth operates with imaginary entities and forces
– myth demands denial of pimacy of matter, causality, logic and evidence
– myth is not universal (changes every thousand years or so)
your computer, electricity grid, and pretty much everything else you see and use in physical life, has been created for you through systematic application of scientific paradigm.
can you draw at least one example of some device based on principles of religion?
that may be islamic suicide belt, right? but no rather not, the same good old laws of physics work there, driven by mythology-obsessed mind.
PS
I find “war on crosses” unacceptable, – just from the perspective of protection of heritage. among religions, Christianity is undoubtedly the most civilized one.
in London, that takes grotesque forms. It is very rare to see the image of St.Paul cathedral’s dome with cross on it. Usually it is small vertical line, or just small sphere. I wonder how long will it take to Sadiq Khan’s Londoners to remove it in real life.
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AY
Have you ever heard the idiomatic expression ”
“There is nothing new under the sun”?
It goes a long way towards explaining the thought process you have followed from those long ago days of Epicurus.
Epicurus was a Greek philosopher who lived from 341 to 270 B.C.
Epicurus took great pains to explain that the gods of the Greek pantheon, that his fellow Greeks agreed on and worshipped, did not exist .
Furthermore according to Epicurus no gods had ever existed or ever would exist and there was no life after death.
I realize that every atheist that ever lived feels a great superiority toward his fellow man on the basis that he has somehow risen above the common herd to synthesize and expound his new improved “original ” ‘scientific “theory ” .
Sadly having studied Ancient Greek philosophy ,I have heard it all before , but generally more elegantly expressed..
In fact my learned friend
“There are more things on heaven and earth, Horario,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy”(“Hamlet “Act 1 Scene 5)
I don’t pretend on originality.
Many people on this site try putting religious dogma in the centre of reasoning and motivation.
philosophy is the part of combat support.
after 9/11, West mostly got it wrong.
and now, here is brilliant fresh idea, – therefore, let us try Christianity.
what is next, cargo cult?
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..”Many people on this site try putting religious dogma in the centre of reasoning and motivation”…
Religious people doesn’t exclude “Reasoning” in their Life and searches…:-))
This same Reasoning does differentiating and include Empiric and Metaphysical experiences in the Universe in the same time..
Perhaps you should try this approach..
What you said it does sound for me like accusation,prejudice and intolerance aimed and directed toward religious people .In the subject our deliberation toward Christians and Christianity..Why ?
..”in the centre of scientific thinking is objective truth.”…
O dear…Hegel bite..and Markx spin on it..
Humble ? Why ?
Whoever is this person ,it does used false interpretation of History
The Truth is here :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cHLnAgXLMY
or here :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe
I think that the show is intentionally run into the heavy argument stage, to attract more audience. We have the same shows in Czech TV, they play on the noisy argument string…
Anyhow – I just love that guy’s argument, that we are not taking down Jupiters, Mars, or Athenas, so why should we take down Christian crosses?
…” literacy is a succession (Canaanean – Greek – Latin)
– art is succession (Hellenical – Rennaissance – Gothic/Barocco/Classicist – Modernity)
– science/philosophy is succession (Hellenical – Italian – central European – Universal)
– moral is succession (Babylonian – Judaic – Christian – Enlightenment – Universal”…
Waw !!! Very sophisticated manipulation for those who doesn’t know..
This is an answer to abolish your hmmm…: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cHLnAgXLMY
Also don’t forget about this :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe
not sure why you call what I wrote manipulations.
I tried to count large blocks of culture that became influential and started successions that we feel today.
so I paid attention mostly to achievements related to writing and science (thinking in general).
…
You can’t just pick and choose Historical time frame to prove your dialectics..It is intellectually dishonest..
[insults redacted] I have no interest going into rhetorics with you..Ende
…”Do You Want to Cancel 2000 Years of Christian Culture!?”..
Thank you for this post !
Latin Culture is based on Christianity..
Christianity is a corner stone and main foundation of contemporary AD Europe..
If Globalist and Commie-Libertins succeed in removing Christianity from Europe there will be no Europe..just the anonymous geographical land mass between Ural mountains and Atlantic Ocean.. Than you can call it( par example) “disputed territories” or else :-))
Local inhabitant anonymous pulp will be perfect environment for the culling by Master race or “chosen one”..as you like..:-))
For Us ,Poles Christianity in the form of Catholicism is a base for everything..our Sovereignty and future ,cultural,moral, ethical order deepens on it..
We all understand that from the time we are born, and we are willing to sheer our blood and life for it.. as did in the past our forefathers…It is our mentality and Idea fix..
We now there is no valid alternative for us ,particularly leaving between German and Russian barbarian states..
We have had the humility and courage to place Jesus Christ as Our official King in this increasingly hostile atheistic / Islamic 21st century world, either by words or actions..
Our Faith in God in Holly Trinity is giving us Dignity of the Man and Christianity it is the only Treasure we have…
ps.Links below will explain how we see meaning of our Life..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XvD7n8ps0k
https://zenit.org/articles/poland-marches-of-the-three-kings-draw-1-2-million/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qljtknCTORI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYf9MYG8P9E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4id9rqpeuCo
God bless you both !
…”between German and Russian barbarian states..”…
Sorry..i was willing to use a word PAGAN instead Barbarian..
Please read accordingly..
not “pagan”, just post-religious.
…
I disagree.
Pagan Germany and Russia is a right word .
There was nothing “post-religious” when Germans walk into Poland in 1939 under banner GOT MIT UNS …placed on theirs “soldiers ” belt..
and those suppose to be “Christian” Germans slaughtered over 6 millions innocent people just in Poland..They looted ,raped and burn to the ground Christian Nation and the Country.
My dear..this “German Christian” behavior we accounting almost 1000 years in this part of Europe..Whole Nations and theirs Cultures were destroyed,Holocaust ed, Genocide and erased by them from history of the Man and Earth..
As you know Christianity is based on simple 10 Commands..
Please explain to me, what God name and moral ethical order Germans people and their “culture” follow ?
Because it has Nothing to do with Christianity..
We Europeans should take pride in our Judeo-Christian heritage, especially the Golden Rule. However it should not be the business of schools to indoctrinate children in any faith.
+100
…
“However it should not be the business of schools to indoctrinate children in any faith.” Well social engineering is everywhere.
Than ,how you can understand Hieronymus Bosch for example or listen Mozart or Bach music ? or read Dante ?
Whole Latin Civilization AD in Europe is based on the concept of Divine Absolute..and Hi was a source of that drive & inspiration .. European AD Heritage directly arrived from it..until NOW !
Pick of BC (antic) Europe was Aristotelian concept of Universe and the Man..Divine Absolute in the center of it..
Healthy Tree can’t live or exist without the roots..