Just about everyone knows a “moderate” Muslim. I know a few of them myself: people who come from a Muslim background, and may or may not have been raised as Muslims, but don’t seem particularly Islamic. They dress like Westerners and seem to enjoy secular life. You never see the women wearing headscarves, and the men may occasionally have beers in their hands.
After studying up on Islam, however, you learn that these are in fact lapsed Muslims, apostates in all but name. If they had to live in, say, Yemen, they would be forced to return very quickly to their ancestral ways, or else wake up dead. Even in Tower Hamlets they would have to enjoy some of their filthy kafir habits behind closed doors.
The illusion that these lapsed Muslims somehow represent “true” Islam is a deadly one. The Wahhabists are perfectly content for us to maintain our fantasy. It serves their purposes admirably well. There will be time enough later for the kuffar to discover the true nature of Islam, once their numbers have been sufficiently reduced and they have been worn down by decades of fear, intimidation, rape, and persistent low-level violence.
Our regular reader and commenter Egghead has some thoughts on this topic.
Anecdotal Islam is the bane of my existence as a committed counter-jihadist. Almost every time I try to warn a fellow Westerner about the clear and present danger of allowing Islam inroads into the West, said person responds with a quaint little story about a ‘nice’ Muslim that he or she knows:
- A lady ‘journalist’ friend made a point to tell me that she had visited a local mosque during a press-related open house. She was anxious to tell me, “These are the good Muslims.” I asked her if she had inquired if their goal was to implement Sharia Law. She got angry with me and said she would. Years later, no word on that mystery.
- A male atheist friend publicly evaluated a speech in which I properly defined the Islamic terms of hypocrisy, blasphemy, and apostasy. He announced to the group that perhaps I needed to perform more research because he did not believe that those terms meant what I said, and I should consider how a Muslim would feel if a Muslim should happen to be in the audience. He mentioned to me after my speech that one of our very nice mutual friends used to be a Muslim, and therefore he cannot believe that Muslims can believe what I explained. He omitted making the connection as to why our very nice mutual friend is now an atheist instead of a Muslim. Rather, he assigned our very nice used-to-be-Muslim friend the unwitting status of Western Muslim representative.
- A male relative traded emails with me for a while about the nature of Islam. He felt that his youthful travel to Morocco informed his opinions of Islam and Muslims more than any current or historical evidence of its violent nature and goal of world conquest. He sincerely believed that the Moroccan Muslims were really great people. I told him that the Moroccan Muslims were only nice to him because he self-censored his Western opinions and behavior around them. I asked him to explain how the Moroccan Muslims would have reacted if he had openly worn a cross or carried a Bible in Morocco. Still waiting for that answer.
- A female relative gleefully mentioned to me that another relative had borne two children by a Muslim man who did not believe in Islam like his parents. Of course, years later, despite now three children and a long term relationship, the ‘moderate’ Muslim man still neglects to marry our relative because his parents disapprove that she is not a Muslim. Even so, our relative permits her three young children to spend every Saturday with his parents who are bound to influence her Western children with their traditional Muslim beliefs.
I am of the firm belief that anecdotal Islam is the greatest threat to Western freedom. Almost every Westerner seems to know a ‘nice’ Muslim who precludes the possibility that Muslims practicing Islam fully intend to forcibly convert and/or murder all non-Muslims in the world.
He announced to the group that perhaps I needed to perform more research because he did not believe that those terms meant what I said…
…and I should consider how a Muslim would feel if a Muslim should happen to be in the audience.
He mentioned to me after my speech that one of our very nice mutual friends used to be a Muslim…
Sentimental Appeal de nouveau; ignoratio elenchi
…and therefore he cannot believe that Muslims can believe what I explained.
Frege, Russel, Wittgenstein, Quine, Searle, Kripke, Strawson, Putnam: you were wrong, all of you!
The sense and reference of a word are whatever the non-European person (or sympathizer of) in the room says they are.
And that’s that!
Hey a friend of mine knows somebody who’s girlfriend knows a good/moderate Muslim so all Muslims around the globe are such peaceful and tolerant like this Muslim. Come on open your eyes and face reality then you can probably recognize that you’ve heard more about violent/radical Muslims than you know moderate Muslims.
I think it is important not to personalize Islam because there could be any person who is living in a moderate way but it doesn’t change the fact that Islam is aiming for more…..
I think the question on this topic may be if you posed this question to what you call an anecdotal Muslim. If the choice was either the renunciation of islam what would you choose. I think the only reason many Muslims still maintain the title Muslim despite being far from it, is because the hard choices do not have to be made.
As the tensions and conflict escalates over time these Muslims may have to make a choice which side they are on. From my own experience, my grandfather maintained the label muslim, but he married an English woman, ate bacon and drank. If you go to night clubs in London, you will find scores of drunk horny Saudi teenagers trying to get laid.
I feel partly the maintenance of the label Muslim is perhaps a fear factor or even partly ones indoctrination from birth still having a hold on the individual.
Even that Abdul guy in the edl maintains the label Muslim, as do serving soldiers In the British armed forces. But they are the kind of Muslims I believe value Britain over islam. The kind of people who if given the choice of my above question, would indeed choose to renounce Islam.
Anon, Nice Logic 101 class!
Eggy, great job on “anecdotal Muslims”! So concise. I’d like to try to summarize and expand, at least for my own self-edification:
I suggest the topic as “non-Muslims trying to be friends of Muslims”, because it addresses the people who who need to wake up.
These Muslim-friend wannabes don’t want to know how their Muslim friends really think, and they actually have to work at keeping the lie going. Because if they found out what was going on in the Muslims mind, they would be forced to either become Muslims or counter-Muslims.
This choice, Muslim or anti-Muslim is a shocking juncture; it must be quite an uncomfortable place. (You are right Egghead, this is a mass problem. Your examples of avoidance in this regard are excellent!)
The friends of Muslims, to avoid confronting this choice, (which they sense unconsciously as as source of discomfort) begin shaping their own behavior to conform to the Muslim friend. Thus the choice before them can be avoided. They tiptoe across eggshells, the Muslim friend smiles.
There is no two-way friendship between Non-Muslim and Muslim. Perhaps utility or truce, but never true and equitable friendship.
Thus is the dhimmi weakness entrained in us by our “educators”. Being a sensible counter-jihadist is not an option, it’s an essential part of every non-Muslim’s mental health, like honesty or straightforwardness or reciprocity.
@you new: this is debatable, but for me it comes Down to the inability for consensus on what constitutes a Muslim. We have “extremist”, “moderate” “practicing” “cultural” and now anecdotal. If the definition was merely those that followed the precise teachings of the quran are Muslim, then I imagine 50-60% of the worlds Muslim population would no longer be considered such. And on those grounds I would agree with your statement.
For example the muslim who is the only ethnic in his friendship group, Is the son of liberal educated Muslims, drinks,dates and eats pork could quite happily and quite genuinely hold a friendship with a non Muslim. But in this instance the reality is they are no more a Muslim than nick griffin, and the farcity is the clinging to a label which actually means nothing to them.
Another issue which I once highlighted Is put of that 50-60pct Of the global Muslim populace that do not follow the precise teachings of the Quran, still enforce whatever beliefs they hold with a ferocity and aggresiveness, Which makes you wonder why they don’t just go all out and just do things properly. For example a muslim may call for death to homosexuals, or the stoning for adultery, but enjoy a cheeky beer at the weekend. One may not pray 5 times a day but will still attack someone who does not fast In Ramadan.
I think it Is this inconsistency compiled with the inability to define what Is a Muslim that creates mass confusion for people. I mean if we look at the varying sects within Islam, it’s clear that they can’t even come to consensus. I think those that have it easy are the ones that simply blame Islam. If a Muslim commits a crime, it’s because of Islam, for every action they find a causal link to Islam, no matter how weak or unsubstantiated that link.
But at the same time those of us that try to unravel and get to the bottom of the complexities and multidimensions to the issues, may indeed come out either empty handed or just keep going round in circles……
And then they all come along, the fifty million good Brits, and each one has his decent Muslim. Of course the others are swine, but this one is a first-class Muslim.
“But they are the kind of Muslims I believe value Britain over islam. The kind of people who if given the choice of my above question, would indeed choose to renounce Islam.”
Maybe Vince, maybe. How though would they react when faced with jihadists who threatened them and their families unless they complied. You KNOW the answer. ’twas always so and that is how Islam has survived – by fear and intimidation. Just as “the prophet” ordered. Plus ca change.
Anon, Nice Logic 101 class!
This class isn’t free, you know, You New.
You shall receive your tuition bill in the post.
In the meantime, I simply leave this tip jar on the table.
Vince, just as there is no “moderate” islam, so there are no moderate mozlems. Ask Erdogan and the other islamic leaders; islam is islam, nothing more, nothing less.
Wake up and read stuff, it is available all over the internet!!
I am always pleased that I did my readings in Islam a quarter century before the War on Terror began. I thus did not need to do a rushed catch-up course, or fear that what I was reading was a polemic. So let me make some observations.
(1) The average Muslim, like the average Christian, is slack. Most of them don’t bother to attend mosque regularly, and are quite happy to adopt much of the culture of the world around them. (I would be tempted to say that the only good Muslim is a slack Muslim.)
(2) Even those who practise their religion mostly want just to life a quiet life.
(3) The terrorists are extreme even by Muslim standards.
(4) On the other hand, history reveals a disturbing trend for Islam to throw up terrorists. However, in the past, they were mostly attacking fellow Muslims. The Khawarij and the Assassins were the medieval equivalents of Al-Qaeda and Hamas.
(5) But the bottom line is: Jihad is a fundamental teaching of Islam, as is the persecution of non-Muslims. As long as Muslims take their religion seriously, they will not be able to avoid this issue.
Does anyone believe in nice Nazis? Hitler was said to be a very gracious dinner guest. If someone who claimed to a Nazi, smiled at your new baby, petted the dog (Hitler loved dogs!) and discussed fine art, would that make Nazis, or their doctrine, less dangerous?
Juniper in the desert; what about Sufism and ahmadiyya? There interpretation of the Quran is teachings of peace not violence. But again the Quran which has been agreed upon by 80% of scholars would dictate they are not Muslims (probably why they are persecuted). At the same time those who are labelled in the media moderate or as Malcolm smith says “slack” or even “anecdotal” are in the true sense of the word, not really Muslim.
Even on this board there is not consensus, and in essence this board is for people who at least recognise there is a major problem.
Bewick: well I feel examples such as the edl guy or British soldiers, are ones were they have made their choice. They have publicly sided with Britain. And in those examples fear of death is a constant, the edl guy must fear for his life and we already know of a foiled plot to kill and kidnap a british Muslim in the armed forces.
But again without knowing these people I can only assume 99% they are not true Muslims, as there views would ultimately conflict with each other. There are countless examples such as hirsan ali and the guy in Spain who wants the Quran banned. Also the guy who supports Zionism. I think when/If the time ever comes many Muslims would side with us.
But I feel the majority would side with Islam. But again it Is hard to tell until that choice has to be made.
There may not be a consensus here, but that’s no problem for me and it shouldn’t be for any other seeker of truth. The truth is right in front of all our faces to read.
History accurately conveyed always tells the truth about human behavior regardless of how difficult or complicated the question posed may be.
So yes I do know how these people will side, and if current policies continue, for the great majority it won’t be with us.
My neighbour is a nice muslim, therefore all muslims are nice
Now if I said that a suicide bomber who blows up a church killing 124 people is a muslim, therefore all muslims are bloody bombers, you would call me racist.
Making any claims about 1.2 billion people on the basis of a handful isracist, regardless of the claims or who makes them.
GSW, Muslims are not a race. Yes, all Germans were not Nazis. But ALL Nazis believed the doctrine of German Fascism.
If you call yourself Muslim, I know what you believe because I’ve read the Koran and know what Mohamed was and how he acted.
If you don’t believe in subjugating or killing the kafir, do not call yourself Muslim.
Hating Nazis was not racist. Neither is hating Muslims.
“There may not be a consensus here, but that’s no problem for me and it shouldn’t be for any other seeker of truth.”
Well said, cjk, there’s definitely a split. Looks like there are number of commentors, maybe seven, who understand what Egghead is saying, also a few who don’t comprehend what is being said.
By the way, there is an excellent form of Muslim that is safe to befriend! They are called “ex-Muslim”. This form of Muslim can be befriended, loved, even married. Don’t be a racist, we need to have more respect for the ex-Muslims! And all you “Friends of Muslims©” out there? Ex-Muslims need love too.
Joking aside, it is truly a great blessing for those who are able to leave Islam behind for good. Let’s not forget.
“The truth is right in front of all our faces to read.”
it’s about your definition of a Muslim. If someone is called being Muslim he/she is person who believes in what is written in qoran. So, refering to your example if a suicide bomber kills a lot of people and claims his work to be done in the name of Allah (and it seems legit) then you’re allowed/able to judge about 1,2 billion so called “Muslims”. You can do so because their religion/qoran aims for sharia around the globe and calls for jihad, therefore Muslims are kind of “forced” to fulfill this task and can be seen in this way.
It’s all about your definition!
This is known as the “IKAGO” fallacy – “I know a good one.” It applies to disingenuous White liberals regarding blacks, as well. Anecdotal exceptions do not counter statistical realities.
As I like to say to people I am discussing such topics with, they have anecdotal arguments, I have historical and theological ones, as well as anecdotal.