Bernard Lugan: “Europe Cannot Defend Itself, Since Europe No Longer Has Any Borders”

Bernard Lugan is a Moroccan-born French historian. The following interview with him aired recently on RT.

Many thanks to Ava Lon for the translation, and to Vlad Tepes for the subtitling:


00:00   Good morning. Bernard Lugan, you are a writer,
00:04   a university professor, s specialist on Africa. You came to Moscow
00:08   to give a lecture about Libya, its history, its geopolitics from the beginning till today.
00:12   What is at stake for that country today, in your opinion? —Concerning Libya? Well, today the
00:16   country’s dislocation is the result of an unfortunate
00:20   intervention by NATO and its allied countries,
00:24   who in 2011 overthrew
00:28   the regime of Colonel Gaddafi, and in overthrowing Col. Gaddafi,
00:32   NATO couldn’t see that they dislocated all the
00:36   social and political organization of Libya that was
00:40   built around tribal alliances that were put together
00:44   by Col. Gaddafi. —Was it intentional? By the international… —I don’t know.
00:48   I think that there was, as usual, with NATO and with the West,
00:52   there was an ideological “a priori” and a refusal of reality.
00:56   The “a priori” and the ideology were human rights; it was democracy,
01:00   and as the result, today, well, the country is lost; lost and cut in two.
01:04   In the west Tripoli is in total anarchy,
01:08   with a government put in place by NATO, and by the, what is called the international community.
01:12   A government that doesn’t govern anything and which rules over absolutely nothing,
01:16   and in the West, Cyrenaica [province], where, fortunately there is power that
01:20   is beginning to form around General Aftar. —Do you think that
01:24   this Gen. Aftar could in fact lead, in order to
01:28   establish a dialogue between the two parts of the country? —Dialogue, I don’t know;
01:32   let’s say that in power relations right now, Gen. Aftar represents the only
01:36   solid power. He is leading what remains
01:40   Of the Libyan army, a small core, a nucleus of the Libyan army, and above all he has behind him
01:44   a tribal alliance of Cyrenaica and the control of
01:49   the oil terminals of Cyrenaica. Which means that he wields a sizeable amount of power.
01:53   He has almost managed to eliminate the Islamists of Cyrenaica —
01:57   not completely, there still are some Islamist pockets; so we have on the one hand Cyrenaica,
02:01   which is possibly facing reconstruction, and Tripolitania, which is facing
02:05   dislocation. So the question is whether Libya can still exist
02:09   with an alliance, a union, a fusion, an entente
02:14   of Tripolitania and Cyrenaica, or if we have to allow general Aftar to conquer Tripolitania
02:21   to re-establish order and reconstitute a strong power. Because in Tripolitania today
02:25   there is no priming of a strong power, as in the Cyrenaica with
02:29   Gen. Aftar. —Do you think that it would be possible that Libya
02:33   may become a united country again? —Yes, if the anarchy in Tripolitania ends; however,
02:41   this anarchy in Tripolitania is organized by several forces,
02:45   firstly Misrata, which is a Muslim Brotherhood city, and which is helped by
02:49   Turkey and Qatar; then Tripoli,
02:53   where a pseudo-government of national unity governs, put in place by
02:57   the EU and the UN, a totally artificial government,
03:01   Islamist militias that are fighting each other,
03:05   the powers of the city of Zintan and the Berbers of Jebel Nafusa [Mountains].
03:09   And there is, through all that, still a hope,
03:13   which is the existence of Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, the son of Col. Gaddafi,
03:17   who might perhaps create an
03:21   exit from the crisis, because the true power… the true powers
03:25   of Libya are its tribes, and a year and a half ago when the Council of Tribes
03:29   of Libya met, they designated the son of colonel Gaddafi,
03:32   Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, as the only legal representative
03:38   authorized to speak in the name of the tribes. And it is this tribal reality
03:42   that the UN is refusing to see, preferring
03:46   to seclude itself in a logic that is completely disembodied
03:50   and cut from the reality, a logic founded on “one man one vote”,
03:54   the universal democracy and so on, which we can see that everywhere
03:58   where it is imposed, it results in anarchy or incompetence.
04:02   And why do they refuse to see Islam al Gaddafi [sic]
04:06   As exactly someone who could represent the tribes and the way
04:10   of the tribes? —Simply because the
04:14   international community, I mean NATO, France and the UK, made war
04:18   On Col. Gaddafi, and they cannot understand, they cannot accept
04:22   that a couple of years later power would be handed over to the son of Col. Gaddafi, because
04:26   let’s not forget that in the middle of the war in Libya in 2011,
04:30   the African countries suggested as solution:
04:34   handing over power to the son of Col. Gaddafi. Col. Gaddafi. Was to leave power;
04:38   he would go overseas, and his son would have been installed as a interim power.
04:42   Which was totally refused, by the way, by President Sarkozy,
04:46   which resulted in today’s impossibility of accepting this.
04:50   You need to know that the countries of Western Europe
04:54   aren’t motivated by considerations of Realpolitik,
04:58   but by considerations of ideology. And we are
05:02   Confronted by people who are ideologues, who have the [following] postulate:
05:06   universal democracy founded on “one man one vote” is the only
05:10   regime that might be acceptable in the world; everything else is a dictatorship.
05:14   So there is, you know, a universalism and a democratic imperialism
05:18   which prevents them from seeing reality. —And you think that this tenet
05:22   cannot be applied in Libya, and in Africa in general? —What tenet?
05:27   “One man one vote” —In Libya it’s impossible, since we face a tribal reality.
05:31   So whoever says “tribe” says “group”, so a “group democracy”,
05:35   yes, but not an individual democracy! There were three elections in Libya,
05:39   elections that didn’t produce anything as a result; because they don’t reflect
05:43   the political reality emanating from the social body;
05:47   it’s a “community reality”:
05:51   tribes, clans and so on. So when this reality is refused, one cannot get results.
05:59   You can’t! You won’t prevent
06:03   me from saying that at noon it’s day and at midnight it’s night. If you deny that, well,
06:07   of course all the rest of the system collapses. —What would be the solution, in that case: accept
06:11   that Gaddafi’s son would be heir? —The solution
06:15   is to let Libyans solve their problems by themselves. As
06:19   some other neighboring countries are justly saying — among them Algeria, by the way —
06:23   countries such as Chad and so on — Let the Libyans solve their problems! Lift
06:27   the weapons embargo for General Aftar, because for now, if General Aftar cannot go and reinstall
06:33   order in Tripolitania, it’s because an international arms embargo prevents him from having modern
06:36   and heavy weaponry that would allow him to go and confront the Islamist militias in Tripolitania.
06:43   Secondly, stop the interference by Turkey
06:47   and by Qatar, and third: let the Libyans solve
06:51   their problems by themselves; and let the tribes take back the power
06:55   from the Islamist militias and from the unaffiliated powers
07:00   that are provoking total chaos in this country; which used to be a country
07:04   where there was order, which used to have one of the highest living standards in Africa, which
07:08   was a country where everything functioned; all that was destroyed by the intervention of 2011.
07:12   In one of your articles you wrote that ISIS failed
07:16   in Libya, why? —Simply because ISIS was
07:20   a non-tribal implantation. ISIS installed itself in Libya,
07:24   and it completely confirms my analysis:
07:28   they had foreign fighters, who were totally exterior/foreign to Libya’s tribes.
07:32   So they installed themselves in the Sirte region, and there they were decimated, because
07:36   they were totally isolated, they had no territorial hold whatsoever, no
07:40   ethnic hold, no tribal hold. So they were eliminated because
07:44   there we have… you see, the failure of ISIS in Libya is proof
07:48   of the power of the ethnic reality… I’m sorry: TRIBAL.
07:52   After the intervention in Libya we saw the refugees crisis that is right now disrupting
07:56   Europe. Do you think that with the solution of the crisis in Libya
08:00   the refugees crisis might end? —During Col. Gaddafi’s time
08:04   there was no refugee problem. Because there were treaties between
08:08   Prime Minister Berlusconi and Gaddafi, and Col. Gaddafi blocked
08:12   the passage of refu…well, of migrants, call them whatever you want,
08:16   and right now nothing can be blocked, since
08:20   Libya doesn’t exist any more. Those “refugees”,
08:24   who are migrants, are not so much leaving from Cyrenaica, they are leaving from Tripoli;
08:28   they leave from Tripolitania. And additionally the most extraordinary thing
08:32   is that not only they are making all the smugglers rich,
08:36   but also the smugglers put them on ships; from the moment they put them on ships, which are
08:40   random ships, they [the smugglers] notify the NGOs that
08:44   the convoy of ships is leaving and the NGOs come to pick them up in Libyan territorial waters
08:48   to bring them to Europe. So there is truly an undertaking
08:53   that is totally surrealist.
08:57   Everybody knows it in Europe, but nobody says anything; because Europe is a
09:01   large soft belly: Western Europe is a country that lost
09:05   all will to defend itself. It’s an ectoplasm.
09:09   European ectoplasm. —So for you
09:13   the refugees crisis is also linked to the complicity between the people smugglers
09:17   and the NGOs on the other end. —Absolutely! There is
09:21   a complicity… I wouldn’t say “a complicity”, because if there were complicity, that would mean
09:25   that there is a mafia-like enterprise; let’s just say that the smugglers are
09:29   benefiting from the good sentiments
09:33   of the NGOs in order to allow the smuggling.
09:37   More so, that those “migrants”, as we call them
09:41   those “refugee-migrants” take fewer and fewer risks.
09:45   Since now they know that from the minute they’re on a ship unable to sail,
09:49   the NGOs’ ships will come to pick them up. So they have almost a guarantee of surviving!
09:57   Therefore this must amplify the phenomenon! —The president of the European Parliament
10:01   says that 30 million Africans could arrive
10:05   within the next ten years in Europe. Do you consider those numbers real? —Well,
10:09   much more! It’s a number that is very inferior to the reality. There are probably
10:13   more that 100 million Africans who want to go to Europe. I don’t say that they will all manage to.
10:17   Look, it’s a demographic problem: you have a country like the Niger, for example.
10:21   A country like Niger, one of the poorest countries in the world, which is a complete desert.
10:25   Except some zones by the river. Women in Niger
10:29   have 6.1 children per woman. 6.1.
10:33   The most fecund demography in the world! Niger that is a country
10:38   with 15 million inhabitants — with its projections, it
10:42   will pass to 30-35-40 million inhabitants.
10:46   Niger that cannot feed its population today. It’ll be even less able to feed
10:50   those 30 or 40 million. So where are they going to go? Not south!
10:54   They will go north. The first to endure this migrant wave will be the countries of North Africa
10:58   Therefore Europe had better cooperate with the countries of North Africa
11:02   so they establish for themselves their own line of protection in the South.
11:06   Because Europe cannot defend itself, since Europe no longer has any borders.
11:10   From the moment that the refugees arrive to one or another territory of Schengen,
11:14   they have access to the totality of Schengen. Concerning deportations — they don’t exist.
11:19   Those are fairy tales for little children. So there is a large, soft European belly and this,
11:23   with the demographic, economic, and climate crisis that is afflicting Africa, will,
11:30   which is normal, for the people to look for survival elsewhere!
11:34   So the solution, in your opinion, is for the Europeans to work with the countries
11:38   of North Africa, in order to establish a border in Africa
11:42   to prevent the immigrants, the refugees… —Yes, as was done in Col. Gaddafi’s time, when
11:46   Col. Gaddafi was in control: at that point, the passage was not through Libya;
11:50   it was rather through Morocco, and Spain. Morocco closed its borders
11:54   Algeria closed its borders. For now the large hole in the black barrel [Africa]
11:58   is Libya and a little bit in Egypt as well. —All right. Thank you very much, Bernard Lugan.
12:02   Thank you.

13 thoughts on “Bernard Lugan: “Europe Cannot Defend Itself, Since Europe No Longer Has Any Borders”

  1. Of course it was done intentionally by the European elites. Never let a crisis go to waste, and when there isn’t a crisis then make one.

    All the blood, human misery, and suffering those smug and arrogant reptiles have on their claws both in Europe and North Africa. Hanging is not good enough for the lot of them.

    • Which is why I thought – and still think – that the culturally ignorant and grandiose NATO ought to be limited to the West, which it barely understands. MENA has reaped a NATO whirlwind…cosmic justice demands that the NATO idjits (plus the Double Trouble Twins, Obama & Clinton, Inc.) be put on trial. But it won’t happen.

      Amazon has a very long listing of Lugan’s books, all but one in French. I would give anything to be able to read this one —

      La Louisiane francaise, 1682-1804

      It would never have existed were it not for the inhumanity of the “nice” Loyalists who moved to Canada to avoid those American revolutionaries, or at least the Trail of Tears from Canada to Louisiana might have been avoided.

      Lugan is right about the imposition of “democracy” and its totalitarian one-man-one-vote dogma. Unfortunately, NATO is blind and deaf beyond its very limited Western sphere. The world will be a safer place when it is reined in.

    • They’ve not the brains to actually plan anymore. All they do is react to crises, trying their best not to get any more blood on their stained skirts…a futile effort.

  2. 100m Africans willing to go North to Europe. Niger’s future population to rise to some 50m – not yet born – mouths to feed. How about a sterilisation programme. Something has got to give. And stop fishing these people out of the Med. Take a leaf out of the Aussie’s book of how to handle immigration. Idk buy Elba and turn it into our Nauru. This is disturbing viewing for those of us with children. What sort of hellhole are we creating for them….

    • The population of Africa would revert to inter-tribal slaughter long before it ever reached those kinds of numbers if the HIV and Ebola didn’t get them first.

      Selling them millions of small arms and billions of cartridges is a win-win-win situation; they voluntarily reduce their populations through innumerable campaigns of mass sterilization, the munitions factories of the West have full employment, and the Western world gets an eyefull of why it is such a bad idea to import these unrepentent savages into it’s lands.

    • Take into account the coming demographic implosion (circa 2040 ff), global and omitting no place on earth. That fact is inescapable, but no one is able to say what the aftermath will be, though the initial effects will be urban in nature.

      Again, I will suggest Sir Gregory Copley’s book on our sidebar, “UNcivilization”

      • Not in Israel. Jewish birthrate in Israel has gone from 2.1 per woman in 1995 to 3.2 in 2016. All voluntary because people are optimistic especially as compared with the immediate self-destructing neighborhood, and the slower self-destruct of Europe.

  3. Just because it’s on RT and RT is Russian propaganda, doesn’t mean that it’s not correct.

    In this case it’s correct.

  4. The countries of Western Europe are not motivated by realpolitik but by ideology – says the Professor
    Sure they are motivated by realpolitik. They have been so certain of the victory of the Muslim masses over the few Jews (150 Muslims to one Jew) that since 1967 (the French embargo on arms to Israel while selling 50 Mirage V to Libya) they have done everything to support Jihad on the Jewish State. Their realpolitik is one: Ensure the flow of cheap energy to Europe at all costs, even if it means the demise of the six million Jews defending themselves in the Jewish State. And who says Libya is a State? Libya was always two entities Cyreneica and Tripolitania since Roman times. And who says Iraq is a state? it was three different vialets, Sunni Shiite, Kurdish, under Ottoman rule for five centuries prior to the short-lived British Mandate. The only real nation-state in the region is Israel and maybe Egypt. The rest are unstable tribal conglomerates. How do I know? How many boats laden with illegals are coming over to Europe from Israel? I wish they were more ideological. Then they would see the reality that democracy can work only where people are educated from birth on human rights rather than tribal supremacy. All Islam is, is deification of the tribal Sheikh to the level of Khaliffa, glorifying absolute power as the pinnacle of achievement

    • Well said, Sir. Bravo. I have a friend over from Paris at the moment. Her mother is a survivor and the stories she tells me of how her son’s school is under a state of siege, there are armed guards, the teachers are in constant watchfulness and even the parents are required to keep an eye out for attack – from Arabs. That isn’t new of course, but running that gauntlet every day, then being spat at and worse just going to the shops is not something I expected to see again. And as before the authorities DO nothing.
      I hope they decide to leave – for the little one’s sake. I may stay a while as I am old. But Europe is no longer safe for us.

      • In Michel Houellebecq’s novel Soumission, the protagonist’s Jewish girlfriend Myriam decides it’s time to flee France. François says bleakly, “There is no Israel for me.”

        Given the massive increase in antisemitic, anti-Christian, anti-Western and anti-kuffar incidents, that have accompanied mass Muslim immigration into Europe, it is a cruel and unusual irony, that many Jewish and Christian organisations, are among the biggest cheerleaders of the EU’s agenda of replacement-migration and also the suicidal multikulti ideology, that facilitates Sharia creep and demographic jihad.
        Yet we are told by much of the MSM and many Christian and Jewish leaders, it is those opposed to the Islamisation of Europe who are the real danger.

        Such lies or delusions are unsustainable and when they collapse, as Nicolai Sennels observes:

        “I would say that the optimists, the people who say that integration is possible, carry a very great responsibility. There is a very great risk that they are selling us hope, a dream, that has no foundation in reality. This means that they will be the ones who are responsible for Europe looking away from and not addressing its problems until it is too late.”

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