I suppose it’s no surprise that the Swedish Church has sunk to this level — we are, after all, talking about Sweden. However, when a bishop of the church is unwilling to indicate a preference for Jesus over Mohammed, perhaps it’s time for the entire hierarchy to step down and look for another line of work. They could sell off their churches for use as day-care centers — or mosques.
Many thanks to Kepiblanc for translating this article from Fria Tider:
Mohammed as Good as Jesus, According to Swedish Bishops
When the candidates for archbishop in the upcoming election were asked if Jesus gives a truer picture of God than Mohammed the answers were somewhat evasive. It was the straw that broke the camel’s back for one of the Swedish Church’s leading theologians, who is now leaving the church in protest.
The priest and professor Eva Hamberg has had enough of the Swedish Church, which she describes as more and more secularized , politicized and intolerant. On June 14th next year Anders Wejryd, an archbishop in the Swedish Church, will retire. The process of appointing his successor has begun, and on Tuesday the first round of the elections for archbishop will take place. Accordingly, last week a public hearing took place where the candidates were given the opportunity to explain how they understand various theological issues, among other things.
“Does Jesus give a truer description of God than Mohammed?” was one of the questions.
The only one of the four candidates in this hearing who answered “yes” to that question was Ragnar Persenius — the current bishop in Uppsala. The others seemed uncertain.
“One cannot reduce the entirety of theology, especially how different religions relate to one another, into a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ question. It is a violation of a great deal of knowledge and experience,” said bishop Antje Jackelén, by many observers considered the most likely candidate to win the election.
But now one of the Swedish Church’s leading theologians, the priest and professor Eva Hamberg, directs a devastating criticism towards the vague answers from the candidates.
“Just asking them that question, whether Jesus gives a truer description of God than Mohammed, and being unable to give a clear answer but instead evading the question, means that the Church of Sweden diverts from the common church of the world. When I was ordained a question like that would be unthinkable,” says Eva Hamberg to Church News.
So now Eva Hamberg has decided to leave Church of Sweden after more than thirty years as a priest. She cannot take responsibility for what she describes as an increasingly rapid secularization and politicization of the church. Hamberg also believes that there is a widespread intolerance within the church against members who represent a more traditional Christianity, for example, the opponents of female priests and people who do not accept same-sex marriages.
I suppose that if one believes that God = Allah then Jebus = Moh becomes understandable, but opening the relevant books will soon show up the differences.
The description of Mo’s interaction with Gabriel is, in Christian terms, a description of demonic posession!
Maybe Bishops in Europe just don’t need to open either book any more!
In multicultural Sweden, perhaps the question should have been “is Jesus or Mohammed closer to St. Marx?”
“Just asking them that question, whether Jesus gives a truer description of God than Mohammed, and being unable to give a clear answer but instead evading the question, means that the Church of Sweden diverts from the common church of the world. When I was ordained a question like that would be unthinkable,”
This must be a bad translation, because it seems as if she is implying that the asking of the question itself is the offense. Clearly we are past the point of that question needing to be asked.
But it is ultimately the same problem in which Homosexuals and Women are ordained as priests.
And at last, this movement away from standing for anything except the latest Leftwing agenda and trend, is the reason why the churches are being abandoned. Why not just watch Mammon, TV, and bypass the middle man?
It’s quite possible that they have no idea what Muhammad said about anything.
I agree. Or else they only know a few of the earlier, non-violent Meccan verses or what the taqiyya artists have seen fit to feed them.
By the sound of things it is quite possible they haven’t got the first clue about what Jesus said too.
A cartoon of Mohammed drinking beer? I fear another round of ‘protests’ could be coming!
John 14:9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Meanwhile, the Church of Sweden would appear to have denied the mystery of the Incarnation. Or perhaps it has just repented of shirk.
As a Christian, I pray for the sakes of Swedish people’s souls, that there are free churches in that country.
I don’t know whether to laugh or to cry, but as a Swede, I could have told you the answers in advance. It’s most embarrassing. I expect a Swedish bishop to have basic knowledge in other religions. I also expect him/her to believe in God and not in Allah.
Wow.
Those three dash-ing bishops who waffled have no dash-ing business holding office. They should all be demoted and catechised. The question boils down to ‘Which religion are you?’ and they can’t dash-ing answer ‘Christian’. What the dash are they doing as bishops if they can’t dash-ing stand up for the divine founder of their dash-ing church?
umm….the woman is a priest?
Uhh they have a female lesbian bishop. This means the church is so progressive/PC/MC as to be dead spiritually. It is no wonder that it is losing 1% of it’s members every year. Any human being with a spiritual impulse or need will avoid this so-called church.
At least no one mentioned Reza Aslan’s “Zealot” version of Christ!
Suppose however that they’d been asked:
Is Judaism or Christianity a better truer vision of God?
Could any one answer that without making trouble for themselves?
Karaite Jews and Fundamentalist Christians who both believe the Old Testament tend to have a lot in common, but most Jews believe in Talmud and Mishna (Jewish Orthadox Tradition) only and most Christians believe in a Paulian version of the New Testament taken out of its Old Testament context (the ‘Law’ nailed to the cross).
But neither of these Jewish and Christian scenarios insist on the execution or enslavement of unbelivers; there is no equivalent of Jihad in either. This contempt for life (and culture) is the insurmountable problem with Islam, and is what makes it immiscible with western civilisation.
The Cross as a iconographic statement really only seems to occur in the Medieval period. The Crucifixes of Cranach are a more thing than Paul. A product of Medieval guilt complexes.
Paul? Does he state what you say he states? Really?
As for Jesus and the theology of the cross, he himself said “the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve, and give his life a ransom for many.” (Mark 10:45).
Calvinists (including fundamental ones, such as myself), are of the mind that while the ceremonial and civil laws given through Moses were there to set Israel apart until the coming of the Messiah, the moral law (in the Decalogue) remains a “rule of walking” (Samuel Bolton, 17th century) for the Christian–albeit as the proper way to express gratitude to God for the grace he has given us, not to be saved by doing it.
As for Paul, we understand that it is the curse and condemnation that was nailed to the cross with Jesus Christ, hence those in Jesus Christ are no longer subject to its curses. We continue to recognize its profitability to rebuking sin, exposing sinners’ need of grace, and providing a major source of ethics.
And, I note that Luther’s catechism expounds to Decalogue, too–and no-one loved Paul as much as Luther.
Pauline church! what on earth are you saying? There is no contradiction between what Paul teaches and what Jesus and the other early Christians taught. Paul was accepted by the earliest church council in Jerusalem and called “our beloved brother” and tasked with evangelising the gentiles by those same elders and apostles. So you claim to know Paul better than the first church in the world? really?
If you’re rabbi, you say Judaism. If you’re a priest, you say Christianity. Nobody’s offended.
Pathalogical altruism strikes again.
Follow-up question for the Swedish clergy:
How do you like your submission — on your knees or over easy?
Seems like it is bent over with foreheads banging the floor, chanting Adonai Ahkbar!
Jesus, Mohammed — Same Thing!
Baron, that is the wrong issue, your angle the thing in an ugly way. most reminiscent of today’s Swedish journalism. The choice was not between the two fictive personages Jesus and Mohammad but about the assumed credibility and opinion force of the same two fictive personages about the most fictitious phenomenon ever, which is an even more stupid issue. Why mitigate the general modern Swedish ‘functional idiocy’?
“Fictive?” LOL!
There is overwhelming historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. Most modern scholars of antiquity completely agree that Jesus existed. They also agree that Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was born between 7 and 2 BC and died 30–36 AD.
A wide variety of independent sources were used by many scholars to document the historicity of Jesus/Yeshua.
True and I would also add that many of the brightest minds that have ever existed on this planet were followers of this Jesus. Men like Isaac Newton, Simon Greenleaf, most of the Founding Fathers of America, Johannes Kepler, Blaise Pascal, 50 Nobel Laureates, the list is too lengthy to post here but suffice to say that these were not men who would follow cleverly devised fables.
It was a trick question.
Were they being asked this as academics? Or as Christians? There is no reason for a Christian to know anything about another religion.
As academics it’s pretty damned hard to answer. I’d say that Christ is infinitely more attractive as an example of moral, ethical and sprititual behavior, however, those are my biases. There is empirical evidence that Christianity has produced a more humane and decent society but one could make a counter argument that all religions are equally invalid. That’s Dawkins btw, not me.
“Fictive” ?
There is overwhelming historical evidence for the existence of Mohammad. Most modern scholars of antiquity & history of religion completely agree that Mohammad existed. They also agree that Mohammad was an illiteate arab caravan merchant & camel driver who was born about 570 AD in Mecca and died june 8, 632 AC. A wide variety of independent sources were used by many scholars to document the historicity of Muhammad ibn ‘Abdullâh. Many of the most clueless minds that have ever existed on this planet have became followers of this Mohammad – that is, becomre submitters to God’s principal prophet and preacher.
That God is so bloody stupid & ignorant that he chose the inferior human ‘swine’ Mohammad as his principal minister makes it an exorbitant tragedy that men like Isaac Newton, Simon Greenleaf, most of the Founding Fathers of America, Johannes Kepler, Blaise Pascal, 50 Nobel Laureates etc, could bring themself to set faith in such an injudicious God-figure. LOL!
Question # two to the arch-bishop candidates:
Do you believe in God’s work or in the Evolution?
The new Swedish arch-bishop has been elected. She immigrated from Germany 55 years ago – she has as yet been bishop in Lund; she has still got a weak German accent. Her motto is: GUD ÄR STÖRRE
= GOD IS GREATER.
As you all know, ALLAH IS GREATER, too.
Who is the greatest? The Holy Spirit, born in Nicea in the 3rd century.
Hallelujah! to all of you Folie Hats.
Greater than what? The motto is bad language both in Swedish and in English.
Reply to Marten Gantelius.
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Det är ‘sandlådesnack’ – it is like children’s sandnbox wrangle: my god is greater than yours – my god is greater than yours – he sure is – greater, HA, HA!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RwluC6GoKLE
I think people are making a mistake in thinking the Anti-Crist is a person. The Anti-Crist is more of an idea that can be found in civilizations and within academia, government, media, entertainment and even organized religions, just to name some places that are obvious.
Islam is a form of anti Christ.
But there are other versions of it that are personalized. I think that Obama is an apocalyptic figure. Liberals have their own eschatology: Rising Seas; equality; the abolition of the occident; abortion… Stuff like that.
The tired old argument that “Allah” just means “God,” so “we’re all worshipping the same God” completely falls to the ground when one realizes that “Ba’al” just means “Lord,” but the Bible makes it VERY clear that the pagans and the Israelites were not worshipping the same God.
I don’t care if the Mohammedans used Christian characters in their stories. Why do people get suckered in by that? David Koresh and Charles Manson used bits of the Bible, too. Does that make their view compatible with Christianity?
The real questions for these members of “modern,” “hip” and “progressive” clergy would be: “Why are you coming out with this ‘understanding’ view now? If it’s so self-evident, why didn’t you say it YEARS ago? Could it be because you shift your ‘faith’ according to waves of public thought; because you’re now surrounded by Muslims, so you react out of fear and try to pass it off as intellectual superiority?”
It’s the same with gay marriage: Why do the “progressive” clergy stand for it now and not 20 years ago? The answer is that they go with the currents. They are jellyfish.
And they will definitely fall for the NEXT bit of perversion/blasphemy that appears on the scene.
Lord in English has its root in the word for Bread Giver. The bread giver was the warrior chief just above yourself. He distributed weapons and food and you were bonded as a man to your Lord. When you died you gave back your armour and sword to the Lord in the Heriot. The Britons threw their swords in the lakes and marshes, this custom continued well in the 1400s among British soldiers and aristocrats.
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Islam is replacement theology.
The coming of Muhammad made all previous religions obsolete. The Christians and Jews are denying Muhammad his rightful place as the last messenger. They stand accused of having forged their scriptures. They have also committed the most heinous crime by not converting to Islam.
A priest or a rabbi who doesn’t understand that very basic concept of Mohammedanism is clueless or derelict in his duty to inform himself and his flock of what’s in store for them, should the soldiers of allah take over.
Bingo!
This article is just another sign showing that the Swedish Lutheran Church is no longer a church even in a very broad sense of the term. It can best be defined as a rotting corpse. The very idea of discussing what sort of picture of God “Jesus gives” and comparing it with anyone else’s “picture of God” is blasphemous from a Christian’s point of view. The basic doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus Christ is God. As soon as you stop believing in that, you are no longer Christian. So, the Swedish Lutheran Church has become an unChristian organisation, and even worse – a gathering of apostates.
I might be unpopular in this forum, but I have much more respect for those Muslims who take their faith seriously than for Liberal pseudoChristian apostates who are, in reality, adepts of the false religion of Political Correctness.
I teach World History in an American high school. We’ve just finished a section on the Reformation, and while I couldn’t go too deeply into things, I suspect there are now a bunch of Pentecostal and Baptist teens who know more about Martin Luther than a half dozen Swedish “Lutheran bishops” put together.
BTW, while I’m Reformed myself, I value the Lutheran heritage I got from my mother’s Norwegian homesteader family.
What on earth is happening in Sweden? Mass rapes by muslims – where are the police? In fact, where are the men??? And now, a so-called church afraid to tell the truth, to wit: Jesus is the Son of God; Mohammed was a false prophet.
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Mohammed “as good as” Jesus?
Whatever happened to the continuum of the sacred and the profane?
Whatever happened to Matthew, 7-8?