“Reshaping the Political Map”

The European socialist Left is not having a good evening. All across Europe the right-wing parties — demonized for years as “racist”, “xenophobic”, etc. — are winning big. In the UK, UKIP has shown very strong gains.

Nick Griffin, the leader of the BNP — which also did well — was kept out of Manchester town hall for the counting by a crowd of violent “anti-fascists”.

Other parties that made gains were the PVV in the Netherlands, the Danish People’s Party, the FPÖ in Austria, and the opposition Popular Party in Spain.

For live coverage of the European Parliament election results, see this BBC page, which has streaming video. Obviously their focus is mostly on the UK, but they cover the rest of Europe as well, and post frequent updates.

Below the jump is a snapshot of the latest reports as of 5:20 pm EST. The time stamps are in British Summer Time:
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2218Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University says: It is beginning to look quite clear that the UKIP vote is well down in the East Midlands, where the party benefited from Robert Kilroy-Silk’s candidature in 2004. It is the one obvious black spot for the party in what is otherwise a night of further modest progress for the party.


2215 Labour’s civil war continues. Lord Falconer — who earlier called for a debate on the leadership — says those MPs calling for change were “people who would not remotely described as people who dissent” under normal circumstances. But chief whip and the prime minister’s ally Nick Brown says “we will do the party a lot of damage” with a leadership contest.

2215 The BBC’s Paul Henley in Brussels says: This is the first international gauge of public reaction across Europe to the way people’s government’s have dealt with the global recession.

2213 Exit polls in Sweden suggest the Pirate Party, which advocates the shortening the duration of copyright protection and allowing non-commercial file-sharing between individuals, has won a seat with 7.4% of the vote. The opposition Social Democrats and the governing Moderate Party are both predicted to finish slightly up with 25% and 18.5% respectively.

2211 The BNP have managed to increase their vote by three points in Leeds and Wakefield, to 10% and 13% respectively. They could be on course to win a seat in Yorkshire and the Humber, Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University says.

2206 Labour have come second to UKIP in Hull — the city of both Alan Johnson and John Prescott.

2206 Results from Edinburgh City Council show the SNP topping the poll on 21%, the Tories second on 19%, Labour in third place on 18%, the Lib Dems on 17% and Greens on 14%. UKIP have taken just 3% in the Scottish capital.

2205 The BBC’s Steve Kingston in Madrid says: The headline of the night is that the governing Socialists have come second — the first nationwide electoral defeat for Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. The conservative opposition Popular Party will be celebrating late into the night.

2203Tim Iredale, BBC Political Editor for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire says: Labour sources say they’ve lost one of their two seats in Yorkshire and the Humber — leaving the party with just one MEP in the region.

2202 Spain’s opposition Popular Party (PP) has won two more seats than the governing Socialist Party (PSoE), according to partial results from Madrid. With 88% of votes counted, the PP has 42.03% and the Socialists 38.66%. Minor parties are set to win five of the country’s 54 seats.

2200BBC political editor Nick Robinson says: What we are hearing from Wales — that the Conservatives are leading the popular vote — is extraordinary. We are talking about a night that is reshaping the political map in Britain.

2156 Nick Griffin has entered Manchester town hall via a rear entrance, having arrived in a police van, surrounded by minders and police officers. The BNP leader says the behaviour of protesters is “outrageous”.

2155 The BBC’s Geraldine Coughlan in the Netherlands says: It’s been a spectacular victory for the far-right Freedom Party to become the Netherland’s second biggest party in the European Parliament. Issues that many Dutch are concerned about are Muslim integration, the growing influence of Brussels over Dutch laws, and Dutch taxpayers’ contributions to the EU budget. These explain the Freedom Party’s success. However the message from voters is still mixed because pro-European parties also did well.

2151 UKIP leader Nigel Farage admits he is disappointed only to have gained 3% in the North East. He blames the expenses scandal for taking attention away from the debate about the UK’s membership of the European Union. “That’s stopped us having a real conversation with the British public on this,” Mr Farage adds.

2151 Preliminary results from Austria suggest support for the far-right Freedom Party, founded by the late Joerg Haider, and the Alliance for the Future of Austria (BZO), which Haider founded after leaving the Freedom Party, has fallen since the last national election to 13% and 5% respectively. Meanwhile, support for the list headed by Hans-Peter Martin, who has campaigned against alleged corruption in the EU, is expected to rise to 17.9%. The two main governing parties, the People’s Party and the Socialist Democrats, are set to achieve similar results to 2004, with 29.7% and 23.8% of the vote.


2147 More on that North East result. Labour’s vote is down 9% and the Tories are up 1% in the region. The Lib Dems are unchanged. UKIP and the BNP are both up 3%.

2146 In the North East, Labour have topped the poll with 147,000 votes. The Tories have won the second seat and the Liberal Democrats have come third, taking the final seat. That means no change in the allocation of seats for the region.

2143 BBC Europe editor Mark Mardell blogs: There are rumours sweeping the parliament — and I stress only rumours at this stage — that the eurosceptic UK Independence Party (UKIP) has done stunningly well. One suggestion is that they have come second, with 18 seats. If true, UKIP leader Nigel Farage will have a very big smile on his face tonight. Read Mark Mardell’s Euroblog

2141 A spokeswoman for Manchester City Council says BNP leader Nick Griffin has been driven away from to avoid protests that have been set up at the North West region count. She said another effort would be made to get Mr Griffin inside the building.

2140 The Fianna Fail-dominated Irish government has suffered serious electoral losses in the wake of the recession that has gripped the state. Local election results declared on Friday already only put Fianna Fail at 25% of the vote, and this is expected to be repeated in the European election results that are declared tonight, according to an RTE exit poll. Meanwhile, the opposition Fine Gael are projected to win 30% of the vote, after securing 32% in the local elections. If the exit poll is correct, this will be the first time that Fianna Fail have failed to come first in an Irish national or European vote since 1932.

Javier Niederanven, Luxembourg says: Unfortunately, this has not been a pan-European election but a huge dress rehearsal for 27 national elections. Have Your Say

2139 Some early results for individual council areas have arrived. In Christchurch the Tories have won 34%, UKIP 30%, Lib Dems 13%, the Greens 6% and Labour just under 5%.

2135 Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University says the Greens appear to be doing well. “They may not do as well as in the final opinion polls suggested but it looks as though they will increase their share of the vote,” Prof Curtice adds.

2133 Results from The Netherlands put the far-right Freedom Party of the controversial politician, Geert Wilders, in second place with 17%, winning four seats in the parliament. The two main parties in the Dutch government, the Christian Democrats and the Labour Party, suffered a marked decline in support, finishing with 19.9% and and 12.1%. Small parties also performed well, including the liberal D66, which finished with 11%.

2133 Shadow Foreign Secretary William Hague shrugs off the suggestion that the Polish Law and Justice Party — with whom the Tories plan to form a new European Parliament group — is homophobic. “Politics is different in Poland,” he says, noting that a Polish MEP in the Socialist group once praised Hitler.

2127 Exit polls in Greece put the opposition Pasok Party narrowly ahead of the conservative New Democracy (ND) party. Pasok is predicted to win 36%, a result which would see it gain no seats, while the ND is set to slip to 34% and lose two seats. The far right Laos are expected to win 7% and gain a seat.

2123 The BBC’s Michael Hamilton in Manchester has heard unofficially that the BNP have finished fifth in Burnley — once thought of as an area of strength for the party.

2120 In Bulgaria, the main centre-right opposition party, Citizens for European Development of Bulgaria (GERB), has won 27% of the vote and gained two seats, according to exit polls. The governing Bulgarian Socialist Party (BSP) trails with 19%. The far-right Attack Party is expected to win 10%.

2120 Conservative sources in Scotland have told the BBC that Labour are third in Edinburgh South West — Chancellor Alistair Darling’s seat.

2118 The BBC’s Judith Moritz in Manchester says protesters have blocked the entrances of the North West region count to try and prevent British National Party leader Nick Griffin getting in. She says eggs have been thrown, but there have been no serious disturbances.

2116 Shadow Foreign Secretary William Hague dismisses the idea that Labour is being punished for the expenses scandal. He says voters are angry about “12 years of failure” from the government. Mr Hague expects his party’s share of the vote to be much as it was in 2004.

2114 German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union (CDU) and its sister Christian Socialist Union (CSU) have lost seven seats, but still finished with a clear lead with 38% of the vote. Second was the CDU’s partner in the grand coalition, the Social Democrats (SPD), with 21% and one extra seat. The big story is the third place achieved by the liberal Free Democrats, which gained 10% of the vote and 11 seats.


2111The BBC’s Mark Denten in Sunderland says: This should be comfortable home turf for Labour. But it looks like their vote in the North East region is being squeezed. There were some bad omens for the party at the county council elections. In Hartlepool an independent was re-elected Mayor and North Tyneside went Conservative.

2110 French political commentator Agnes Poirier tells the BBC that the strong result for President Nicolas Sarkozy’s UMP is “very bewildering… but the French left is very fragmented, and in the campaign it couldn’t find the momentum or muscle to talk about Europe”. The Greens’ third place was a strong result for them, she says, because “they were the only ones to talk about Europe — they were very effective”.

2105 In France, the governing Union for a Popular Movement (UMP) has reversed the result of the 2004 election by taking 29% of the vote. The opposition Socialist Party (PS) were second with 17%. Last time, the Socialists had 29% and the UMP nearly 17%. The Greens came in third this year with 15%.


2101 The polls have closed at the end of four days of elections to the European Parliament in all 27 countries of the European Union. The turnout, officially estimated at just over 43% — was the lowest in the history of the elections. Exit polls suggest governing parties have done badly in a number of member states, including the UK, Ireland, Greece and Latvia, as voters express their dissatisfaction with efforts to deal with the global economic crisis. However, ruling parties in France and Germany appear to have done relatively well.

2059 The BBC’s Mike Hamilton has been speaking to the Lib Dems in Manchester. The Lib Dems say that it is looking less likely that the British National Party will win a seat in the North West region, because in Burnley — where the BNP is traditionally quite strong — the Lib Dems are looking as if they will come first and Labour will come second. In Liverpool and Manchester, according to the Lib Dems, the BNP look to be on course to come sixth.


2051BBC Ireland correspondent Mark Simpson says: No count in Belfast until tomorrow morning, but we could see Sinn Fein topping the poll for the first time. It could be quite a historic day in Northern Ireland — although that phrase is much over-used.

2050The BBC’s Patrick Burns in Birmingham says: Talking to members of the Conservative camp this evening, they are really quite confident that they are going to be in a position to pick up three of the six seats in the West Midlands region. There is intense speculation about who will get the last seat. The British National Party have their vote concentrated in certain areas like Stoke, where they have nine councillors, but in the shires the Greens have been campaigning hard.


2041 The bookies have bad news for Gordon Brown. William Hill are offering 9/4 that he will be out of office as prime minister by midnight next Saturday, and 6/4 that he will be gone before the next election.

2040 BBC Europe editor Mark Mardell blogs: Turnout of around 42% would be a record low and mean all those adverts persuading people to vote have not worked. Some will argue, perhaps tongue-in-cheek, that this means people are happy and content with their lot and the job of the parliament — I have heard that argument once already! Perhaps more significant in the long run is that it seems the centre-right will have a very good night and the socialists will do badly. Quite extraordinary at a time of economic crisis.

See the official results site for a pie graph of the results by group.

68 thoughts on ““Reshaping the Political Map”

  1. Good news from the UK, the BNP has just won its first Euro seat, with high hopes for BNP leader Nick Griffin to also win a second seat

  2. Baron,

    I have been an occasional reader of GoV for years. Don’t read too much into BNP victory which is partially a result of the expenses scandal and low voter turnout. I dont think MSM is misplaced in labelling BNP as racist. The party afterall restricts its membership to white people only. To say that people have no choice but to vote BNP is nonsense, UKIP has similar stands on Islamists and immigration which aren’t coloured by racism. Addtionally UKIP is a true right wing party unlike BNP whose economic policies are actually far left… a la. old Labour.

  3. AFAIK Vikrant, the BNP has non-White members. It does have a British Identity platform, including English language, and limiting immigration.

    This sounds at least like “I can see Russia from my house.” Something Sarah Palin never said, but rather Tina Fey imitating her.

  4. The BNP have done very well given the huge campaign against them, including media lies and forged leaflets assigned to them – all in the name of anti-fascism of course!

  5. The BNP does not restrict membership to ‘whites only’, the party secretary is Jewish and there are many coloured Britons in their membership.
    Sounds like you bought the propaganda of their opponents Vikrant.
    And the UKIP have been caught with their fingers in the till, just like the Conservative and Labour politicians.
    And if their stands on islamists and immigration aren’t “coloured by racism” as you claim, in what way do they differ?

  6. AFAIK Vikrant, the BNP has non-White members. It does have a British Identity platform, including English language, and limiting immigration.


    I’m a dual British and American citizen of Indian ethnicty. BNP Charter clearly states that BNP membership is only limited to the Caucasians. BNP clearly states that British non-whites are considered to be permanent guests in UK NOT common Britons. BNP encourages “voluntary repatriation” for non-white immigrants, as someone who has been physically assaulted by BNP supporters, I doubt how voluntary that would be.

    BNP goes beyond limiting immigration, clearly fine with it as long as it is whites only like from eastern Europe etc. Mark my words, BNP are mere opportunists riding on anti-Islamist wave.

  7. Vikrant,

    I know very well about the BNP’s socialist policies. That’s why you won’t see me promoting it — I object to socialism in all its forms.

    And I know that many people who vote for it do so out of protest.

    I definitely prefer UKIP, but it has had massive troubles getting its act together. It seems to specialize in destructive infighting.

    As for the race angle — I’ll wait and see on that. As parties become mainstream, they tend to drop that kind of baggage. Look what happened to Sverigedemokraterna and Vlaams Belang.

  8. KG,

    In common sense Jews are considered as Caucasians. I’ll quote the BNP constitution itself:

    The British National Party represents the collective National, Environmental, Political,
    Racial, Folkish, Social, Cultural, Religious and Economic interests of the indigenous
    Anglo-Saxon, Celtic and Norse folk communities of Britain and those we regard as
    closely related and ethnically assimilated or assimilable aboriginal members of the
    European race also resident in Britain. Membership of the BNP is strictly defined
    within the terms of, and our members also self define themselves within, the legal
    ambit of a defined ‘racial group’ this being ‘Indigenous Caucasian’ and defined ‘ethnic
    groups’ emanating from that Race as specified in law in the House of Lords case of
    Mandla V Dowell Lee (1983) 1 ALL ER 1062, HL.
    2) The indigenous British ethnic groups deriving from the class of ‘Indigenous
    Caucasian’ consist of members of: i) The Anglo-Saxon Folk Community; ii) The Celtic
    Scottish Folk Community; iii) The Scots-Northern Irish Folk Community; iv) The
    Celtic Welsh Folk Community; v) The Celtic Irish Folk Community; vi) The Celtic
    Cornish Folk Community; vii) The Anglo-Saxon-Celtic Folk Community; viii) The
    Celtic-Norse Folk Community; ix) The Anglo-Saxon-Norse Folk Community; x) The
    Anglo-Saxon-Indigenous European Folk Community; xi) Members of these ethnic
    groups who reside either within or outside Europe but ethnically derive from them.


  9. Baron,

    If BNP gives away their racial baggage, they will simply lose their core support base. Griffin till 10 years ago was going about posing with David Duke and denying holocaust. He obviously disowns the Nazi propoganda now, but i really doubt how much his personal opinions have changed.

    BNP continues to deny the reality of post-colonial (especially post-Thatcher) Britain. Policies like isolationism, repatriation of “Pakis” will make UK an economic basketcase.

  10. Vikrant,

    I can’t argue with anything you are saying. But — based on Brits that I know personally — many, many non-racist people are voting for the BNP. It’s possible that a majority of BNP voters no longer share those particular opinions of the “core support base”.

  11. Perhaps Brits are voting for what’s available, the best of a bad lot. They are lodging a protest against the status quo which is horrendous in so many ways.

    It is good hygiene to dump politicians on a regular basis to avoid the professional vote seeker and minimize the corruption which takes a while to encrust new vessels like barnacles. Dumping under-performers and rewarding the few good eggs with re- election is also a salutary lesson for the new crew.

    It never ceases to amaze me how people focus only on the right and elide past the fact that leftist parties are extremely racist against whites as are many leftist constituencies like American blacks who voted over 95% for Obama and attend churches like his with black bigots as ministers.

    All affirmative action policies by leftist parties designed to lift supposedly disadvantaged groups identified by race alone instead of actual evidence come at the expense of whites, usually young. Since the latter have usually not benefited from nor practiced racism they are unfairly discriminated against. Meanwhile the designated “victim” groups include individuals who have not necessarily suffered racism and may in fact be practising it! (e.g. indictment last week in California of 150 Latino gang members for campaign of cleansing their town of blacks including killing them).

    It is also racist policy to flood every previously white country with non-European immigrants while the immigrants’ countries of origin remain resolutely and uniformly non-white. Whites alone have to welcome multicult on pain of being called racists while every non-white can have his own “pure” country and colonize the white country of his choice as well.

    This discrepancy of required multicult is major racism. Whites are fools for accepting this lack of reciprocity.

    Open up Mexico for whites! If multicult is good north of the border, it must be south of the border as well, right?

  12. You yourself pointed at a problem when you said that you are an indian with a British and American citizenship. If there is a war, whose side are you going to be on? What will be your allegiance? Americans interned Japanese during the Second World war for a good reason, not because they were monsters (as it is represented now). Will you let the white-skinned strangers with alien and distasteful to you facial features slaughter your co-ethnics if there is a conflict? If you say “yes,” I won’t believe you. When push comes to shove, people vote for their own gene pools. Multracial sociaties are abnormal and unhealthy.

    Even the UN recognizes the rights of indiginous people to be protected demographically (I think the specific phrase that is used is “cultural and demographical integrity.” So the rights of people to live among their own and rule themselves is recognized wecen by the leftist establishment. It’s not some esoteric idea of a far right, but a commonly recognized human right. It’s just that the idea of “indiginous population” is not applied to Native Europeans.

    Coming from one of the most populous ethnicity of the world, it is probably hard for you to stretch your imagination and visualize the total destruction of your people and how this possibility would feel. But try to do this nonetheless. The existence of European people is threatened today through unlimited immigration and intermarriage to non-Europeans. There is only 1.5 million of Estonians in the world, for example. Try to wrap your mind around this figure.

  13. “BNP continues to deny the reality of post-colonial (especially post-Thatcher) Britain.”

    You know, a real political leader and visionary does not succumb to the hopelessness of the existing reality. He envisions his own reality and shares this vision with others so that they too become energized by it and eventually create it.

  14. Felicie,

    Firstly you have no bloody business questioning where my allegiance lies. I am a proud serving member of the US Army ROTC. The problem with you white nationalists you see is that you are obsessed with racial purity and the concept of homogeneous Caucasian race. These issues supercede any honest efforts to combat the Islamists. If you are talking about my cultural allegiance, a product of British public schools, I am as British as it gets.

    As for Indians, Indians are not a homogeneous “race”. Indian is an umbrella term like for example a European. My people have already been culturally wiped off thanks to partition and an Islamic republic that stands on their lands now.

  15. When push comes to shove, people vote for their own gene pools.

    Gene pools aren’t as exclusive as you seem to think btw…

  16. Although I agree that there are some problems with the BNP in terms of its membership policy and so on, I get annoyed with the MSN criticising it because some of its members have dubious backgrounds.

    According to this type of logic, the British Labour Party should also be vilified since it has former communists in its ranks.

    Also I hate too say it, but the UKIP leader comes across as a pretty unpleasant character – totally full of himself and incapable of letting other politicians get a word in edgeways.

  17. Good catch, thll!

    “you have no bloody business questioning where my allegiance lies”

    First, let me note that this blog’s administrators require courtesy and civility from its participants. Secondly, it would be my direct political business to question your allegiance if I lived in Britain and was a British voter. As it is, it is still my right to have a philosophical opinion about this, which I am expressing. Let the British people determine who has a right to call himseld British. Words are important. They have a symbolic significance to our national identities.

    And once we are on a subject of words, your use of the word “islamists” is symptomatic. It shows directly where your allegiances lie.

    I didn’t really get your point about “exclusive gene pools.” It didn’t answer my point that people have a tendency to side with their co-ethnics.

  18. “It is also racist policy to flood every previously white country with non-European immigrants while the immigrants’ countries of origin remain resolutely and uniformly non-white.”

    Wow! You hit the nail, man. The current Zeitgeist is that Whites must hate themselves and commit ethnic suicide. Though tacitly and inadvertently, in the last decades this Zeitgeist has been advanced with uttermost ferocity through most of lefty Western Europe. With its current reproduction rate of 1.3, well below the substitution rate for native Europeans, our most than beautiful English roses (yes: I talk like this even though I was born in Mexico) will become extinct in a century or two.

    No, man: I am not “obsessed with racial purity” and I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. Believe me. I too have a bit of Indian (American Indian) blood in my veins, though I look like a Frenchman. However, the feeling of preserving your own ethnicity and your own culture is a most basic sign for a truly healthy psyche. Which means that unlike the comparatively healthier U.S. conservative population (as well as Israel’s), Europe is suffering from suicidal immigration policies in both senses: ethnic suicide (bye bye to my precious blondes!) and cultural suicide (Islam). And THAT must be fought with all of my strength. (This is the final theme of a 270,000-word book I’m trying to publish in Spanish.)

  19. I think I am with Vikrant on this.

    Just reading two lines of the document supplied by him – it says “folkish”. I have never come across thi sterm in English, but in German there is a whole range of words coined by nazis starting with voelkish and many many compounds starting with Volks-.

    And I trust his personal experience with BNP. You can easily coach the leadership in nice words and let the BNP leaders do some disgusting job on the ground.

    show me in what way the BNP disciplines those people on the ground. I saw a spot on youtube showing strangers leaving GB. I am fine with any imam or bearded muslim to quit tomorrow, but the spot showed clearly the ship sunk offshore. And the white stuff leaving in a little boat.

    This is not funny and appeals clearly to the meanest instincts of some retards.

    As I know some ethnic non-Czechs who enjoy our culture, I respect them even more than average Czechs who got everything for free.

  20. If you study a bit Greek classics and then Indian classics, you find many common grounds. An ancient Greek visiting India was not lost in the multitude of gods.

    Show me some member of BNP who can work with these subtleties…. subtleties welcome by our readers or authors like Baron or Fjordman.

  21. “Just reading two lines of the document supplied by him – it says “folkish”. I have never come across thi sterm in English, but in German there is a whole range of words coined by nazis starting with voelkish and many many compounds starting with Volks-.”

    I feel that the Nazis and their terminology will forever be some kind of a punishing rod to beat ourselves into submission with. If we find out that Hitler liked cucumbers, should we stop eating cucumbers? We should not define ourselves reactively but proactively if we want to articulate a viable political ideology on the side of Truth and Justice that will win us political seats.

    “As I know some ethnic non-Czechs who enjoy our culture, I respect them even more than average Czechs who got everything for free.”

    What is the ethnicity and culture of these non-Czechs who enjoy the Czech culture? What are their numbers? Would it make a difference to you if their enthnicity is German and they constitute 3% of the population or if they are Indian and 25%?

  22. “Show me some member of BNP who can work with these subtleties…. subtleties welcome by our readers or authors like Baron or Fjordman.”

    In the past BNP had some obscure origins, like its former anti-Semitism. But it’s basically right. You won’t find subtleties from politicians. That’s not their job but ours. If we compare the current relativist Zeitgeist with Nazi Germany’s, the current one is even worse. However monstrous eliminationist anti-Semitism was, Germans in the 1930s didn’t want to commit ethnic and cultural suicide.

    The current politically-correct multicultural Zeitgeist (PCMZ) is worse because it’s suicidal. One of our century’s backfire problems has to do with history, with demanding “unconditional surrender” in World War 2 only to the Germans (if this step had to be taken, we should have done the same with Russians and Arabs when only we had the bomb). The demand of “unconditional surrender” backfired horribly because the healthy national aspects of European ethnic and national esteem were crushed after the war. And until the recent elections that’s reflected in today’s PCMZ: the extreme, and suicidal point to the left the Western pendulum has gone.

    In no way I’m advocating Nuremberg laws against Jews. On the contrary: I am a strong supporter of Israel. I’m just saying that the pendulum must find a healthy center between Hitler’s thousand-year Reich and the current PCMZ (which is anti-Semitic by the way). It’s just that simple.

    Hitler aside, if I had to chose between, say, Spain’s general Franco and PCMZ Zapatero, I’d chose the generalissimo (as Solzhenytsin did in his time and Westereners didn’t understand his wisdom at all).

  23. There were in fact some cucumbers around, for ex. the communists had trouble to build highways for a while, because it was “nazi”.

    But nazi terminology is just like islamic terminology designed to hit someone. I do not have enough “Sprachgefuehl” sense of language-subtleties in English to tell what means “folkish”. It is up to you to tell me more. I think it is weird, but I may be wrong.

    But in German it is a disaster – a whole ready made apparatus. I migh find some and show you how it “works”.

    We have a comparative advantage – speaking Czech is impossible without being part of our culture. There are no speakers around (like abroad English-, French-) disconnected from indigenous culture. The language is somewhat tough (but not so much as some like to declare). So the prospective speaker has to bow deep before acquiring some standard knowledge.

    You are right in one point – with the numbers of immigrants the capacity to accept our culture may diminish.

    Those people I know are Germans, Israelis, Americans, Persians, Vietnamese, Africans, Indians, Ukrainians, Poles, Austrians, Brits. The same country people might be naturally part of some cultural-job-company island and have nothing to do with us directly.

    As for Germans or Indians – you might easily have people who are good for us or not so good. Esp. India has so many different peoples like Europe.

    Indian casts work like nations.
    I might supply a list of Indian nations/casts I would not like to see here and others who might be fully acceptable. 25% is too much, but still it depends on the quality of the people you propose.

    I have a problem with foreigners who stay here purely for economic or refugee reasons.

    But they might be Western as well.
    Some Westerners come here simply speculating – buying some property.
    Do they want to integrate? I doubt it.

    Many who dislike it or find it difficult run away and join their pseudoWestern ethnic subclubs. Sorry for “sending” them to you. They walk out on their own…
    Ethnic self-cleansing.

    We got miraculously rid of many Chinese who made money and went westwards or maybe home. They never meant to integrate…

    There are 800 Turks in Prague alone. Half of them detest the other half. The islamic half I want to see gone, the others may stay. I think the non-islamic, anti-islamic Turks feel the same.

  24. Czechmade, I feel like we speak from two irreconcilable perspectives, you and I. I speak from the position of love, attachment, and pain. You speak from the “objective” intellectual position of a proposition nation that is disengaged from emotions and desire. (One can, of course, ask if such a neutral position is at all possible, but that’s a different question). I wonder if we can ever understand each other or reach a common ground. Even if we can imagine an extreme case of the European cultures surviving in their traditional historical form, this outcome will not satisfy me, as long as the future population is of non-European origin. I want MY descendents to survive. Moreover, I want the population as a whole to retain its recognizable European identity. So not just the individual selfish gene, but aggregates of genes that preserve their integrity. But even this scenario is a fantasy, an invalid thought experiemnt. Ethnicity and culture are interrelated. You cannot replace one ethny with another and preserve the previous culture.

  25. I wholeheartedly agree with Felicie. Recently I watched again the film “Oliver!” which in 1968 I had watched for the first time as a 10-year old boy. Four decades after, in a multi-ethnic degenerate Europe, I can only feel deep nostalgia for Victorian times… Mark Lester, the angelic boy who represented Oliver, is a perfect albeit visual paradigm of what I (and perhaps Felicie) feel: to preserve our own genes for future generations through such beautiful children.

    Even if in the future Islam is defeated and Britons became, say, classical liberals like Stuart Mill but as mestizos as most Mexicans, the country in which I was born, I would feel all of my self-esteem and self-image disintegrated. Actually I wouldn’t like to live in that world at all.

    A self-exiled Briton in Sri Lanka, Arthur C. Clarke, wrote futuristic books in which beauty (I mean, Caucasian physical beauty) was one of the cornerstones of the social architects of utopian civilizations. Isn’t it curious that the novel format is the only way in which you can express these ideas in today’s racially suicidal, and socially treasonous, PCMZ?

  26. Felicie,

    Nope no one except the Queen of England or the President of the United States have a right to question my allegiance.

    Also nobody outside the white nationalist circles sees themselves a part of some big ethnic “race”. My closest ethnic cousins would be the Taliban, more so than other Indian people. And yes as a member of the US armed forces, I am expecting to be deployed in Afganistan. Perhaps it is hard for you to appreciate that people DO see the world in terms of nationality rather than one of the myriad of conceptions of an ethnic race.

    You obviously display the typical alarmist tendencies when it comes to immigration. No country in Europe has 25% Indian population. Britain which has perhaps the strongest cultural and historical links to India, is about 1.2% Indian, y’know basically a drop in the ocean and this is after the doors on mass immigration from the commonwealth were firmly shut.

    And if you think multiracial (as opposed to multicultural) societies, are “unlhealthy”. What about United States which while being firmly an Anglo-Protestant culture does attract best and the brightest from around the world, giving it a definite advantage over other countries.

  27. Amey / Virkrant,

    You are clearly very confused as to your true identity, and its not your fault – this is the insidious result of multiculturalism.

    You have dual British and American citizenship but are of of Indian ethnicty.

    You serve in the US armed forces but say you are “as British as it gets” but also refer to others of your ethnicty as “my people” and then go onto to say that your “closest ethnic cousins would be the Taliban” and indignantly claim that “no one except the Queen of England or the President of the United States have a right to question my allegiance.”

    WOW!!! – its hard to know where to even begin to unravel the absurdities of all of this, and in fact I think the ridiculousness of it all it pretty much speaks for itself.

    In fact as a true, indigenous Englishman I find it very offensive that you treat MY identity with so much contempt, obviously believing that it is all rendered to down to just a piece of paper and that you can also be American, Indian and closely racially related to the Taliban – all the while being as “as British as it gets.”

    In fact, the very term England and English – unlike many other national monikers – does have a very specific racial and ancestral connotation to it. It is the land of the Angles. The English are Anglo by name and by definition and so are the real English.

    Merely having a British passport does not make you British or English, and God knows this treasonous government throws them out like confetti – a wise man once said in reference to that you can have a jar with jam written on it, it doesn’t mean there is jam inside.

    And given that you carry a British passport whilst serving another countries armed forces and proclaiming ancestral affinity with an enemy that Britain is at war with, I have every right to question your allegiance

  28. The Senitel,

    I’m American by an accident of the location of my birth. I’ve lived most of my life in the UK, before i moved to the US for college. I brought up the subject of my “ethnic affinity” witht he Taliban to illustrate the fact that no everyone sees the world theough ethno-racial lens. I’m not a Muslim, and certainly dont have affinity with Taliban’s political aspiration. My family was ethnically cleansed out of the area by the Taliban’s forebears during the partition.

    I’m not confused about my cultural identity, I’m Anglo-Saxon culturally, as simple as that. As for serving in the US Army, there is nothing in the British constitution that stops me from serving in the armed forces of any nation allied to the crown.

  29. It is also racist policy to flood every previously white country with non-European immigrants while the immigrants’ countries of origin remain resolutely and uniformly non-white. Whites alone have to welcome multicult on pain of being called racists while every non-white can have his own “pure” country and colonize the white country of his choice as well.
    The solution is simple: legislate that we will accept no immigrants from any country that wouldn’t accept us (and also, give us equal rights, voting rights and “racial preferences” i.e. “affirmative action” as we would give them.) India, Japan and China would automatically be disqualified as they only offer citizenship to ethnically Chinese and Indian immigrants. Most Muslim nations only accept Muslim immigrants, so they are out too. There’s no “racism” involved, just reciprocity: we will accept yours if you accept ours. Most Mexicans are deeply racist against Nordic-looking people BTW. They would never accept 20 million of us flooding into their country.

  30. “Most Mexicans are deeply racist against Nordic-looking people BTW. They would never accept 20 million of us flooding into their country.”

    Sorry but nop!

    I lived in Mexico for more than forty years and know that the only anti-white racists are the leftist college students. Many Mexicans, especially the mestizos (half blooded) crave so much to be whites that when a child is born they are happy that the Spanish gene happens to be dominant. Only the small group of lefty Mex are *really* bad ideologically.

  31. Czechmade, Vikrant et al. —

    “Folkish” is a peculiar word, not really in current usage in the English language. The dictionary definitions — (1) relating to folk arts and folk music, etc., and (2) synonymous with “folksy” — don’t seem to carry the likely intended sense. Its meaning is thus up for grabs — it means whatever the BNP wants it to mean.

    I suspect that it is a leftover from the days of Sir Oswald Moseley and the original fascist antecedents of the BNP , and that it was borrowed directly from the German völkisch(e), with all the associated romantic/ethnic connotations so beloved by the Nazis.

    But it would be interesting to learn the BNP’s definition of the word. I assume that they intend it to mean roughly “of Anglo-Saxon cultural and genetic stock”, or something similar.

  32. I lived in Mexico for more than forty years and know that the only anti-white racists are the leftist college students.
    Ceasar Tort, you’ve obviously never met the Mexicans who’ve illegally flooded the US. Even European-looking Mexicans despise white Americans. They even have popular songs that describe beating up white Americans whom they derogatorialy call “gabachos.”

  33. Response to Queen:

    In fact, I lived for five years in the U.S. with Mexican, legal and illegal aliens. I even have Mexican cousins living in California. “Gabacho” is not pejorative just as “negro” in Spanish is not pejorative either (“naco” is the pejorative term for Mexican Indians, and “gringo” is pejorative for Americans). I know Mex slang, trust me. The Mexicans I met in the US were not racists. However, I would agree with an immigration stop to Hispanics into the US (but this is an althogether different matter).

  34. Baron,

    using “folkish” means that BNP is unable to maintain their real Anglo-identity having to borrow from pre-warII “Germans”. Lack of imagination, lack of phantasy, lack of knowledge of own values, lack of education.

    I feel sorry for them. I might help these uneducated fools with no sense of tradition by studying anything English from Beowulf onwards, distilling slowly what might be the best code of the English nation for the sake of preserving true English traditions.

    Being a nation does not mean sitting in a museum and protecting it from visitors, being a nation means working with your tradition adding something very propre and special. This way one can honour his ancestors. One is always free to do better. Such a work is a wonderful challenge and we should quitely take it.

    These fools spent probably very little time paying attention to their own riches and now are they nicely trapped. I guess they are somewhat English in name only. We might be easily more English than them – paying real attention to what might have made or could make a sound English mind (pregnant with its own traditions) even sounder and successful.

    Anyone in the world is free to borrow anything cultural from England and do better than them.

    The old Greeks were masters in this. They took something and turned it in something new – Greek again by all means.

    I guess the BNP plan is just shouting from a museum loosing more Englishness in the process.

  35. The Senitel,

    Would ever ask a similar question to an ethnically Caucasian British-American dual national? Trust me there are a lot of Britons in the United States.

  36. Yes I would and I have done so many times.

    Now it is an easy question – do you consider yourself to be ‘as American as it gets’ as well as “as British as it gets” too?

  37. IMO, to be English is to make steak and kidney pie and enjoy it. You work with what you’ve got and make the best of it. So what if you’ve got more kidney than steak, and so what if you’ve only got lard to make the pastry, you’re going to have that steak and kidney pie come hell or high water and by god you will enjoy it.

  38. Cesar Tort, Im waiting for the Mexicans to liberalize their property ownership and immigration laws, which they enforce aggressively.

    Until then…

    BTW, 20 million gringos immigrating to Mexico with dual citizenship would be a boon for Mexicos economy and peoples….but their is that pesky cultural and language thing, now isnt there.

    Furthermore, I have proposed US immigration reform to tit for tat Mexican policy and thus put the onus on them….that would be interesting to say the least. Mexico a colony of the US?

  39. But Im largely with Vikrant on this.

    In the US, historically, you self integrated in order to prosper economically….but this only works with a limited welfare state…think safety net. The Euro style welfare state is much more suited to a homogenous cultural and ethnic group…that is why the Scandinavians have the quentesential socialist lite paradises….however in their foolish arrogant naivete, they have and are ruinnig their peaceful little paradises up that way.


  40. EscapeVelocity,

    The Mexican elite is indeed anti-American, but not the average Mexican. I for one know that otherwise comparatively conservative Mexican girls would gladly have sex with a “gringo” tourist just because he’s an American.

    As to immigration laws, my *former* countrymen (I self-exiled from Mexico) committed a big blunder when, during the U.S. invasion of Iraq, they were offered negotiation on immigration in exchange of Mexican support in the U.N. President Vicente Fox missed the chance and only one reporter complained. However, there are intellectuals that have been critical of the elite’s anti-Americanism. Take a look at the books by Alvaro Vargas Llosa et al, for instance Guide to the Perfect Latin_American Idiot.

    Changing subjects, I am disappointed that since yesterday nobody responded in this forum to the claim, way above, that BNP members were “fools”. Actually, despite their shadowy past parties like the BNP might save Europe in the forthcoming decades. Aren’t GoV’s commenters fully conscious of it?

  41. Well, Im not a big fan of the BNP, I like the UKIP better. Gert Wilders party is right up my alley. The Vlaams Belang, SPP, and NPP are pretty decent. But I balk at Austrias far Right(far Left whatever) party, and the French Front National. But I see the BNP as more of a farce than those 2 withe the BNPs less than admirable past.

    However I do see an empowered nationalist populist Right, stealing votes from the Left, and giving the European Center right an ally and driver on certain issues as well as a way to form a coalition with a party that shares some nationalists concerns/interests….like the Danes have done.

  42. Also, I would like to say, that while I have my problem with illegal immigration (of Mexicans especially lets not kid ourselves). I vastly prefer the mostly hard working Mexican Catholics to the South Asian and North African Muslims.

    We can work out the situation in a manner in which both Mexicans (and other hispanic speaking latinos – whatever is the polite term)….can both benefit from expanded work and travel visas and freer trade, etc….without pissing on each other too much.

    Dont you agree?

    However that requires real honest debate without the Left and Mexicans shouting racist, and Mexico itself addressing its laws.

    I love Latino women, they are beautiful.

  43. Although Latinos are not dangerous as serious Muslims are, Lawrence Auster would disagree with you on “Hispanic” immigration (actually, the re-Indianization of the US).

    That’s why I believe BNP hits the nail. As I and another (female it seems) commenter say way above, identity is not just cultural but ethnic. It’s suicidal to import, to put it bluntly, non-whites. However, I most welcome non-white apostates like Wafa Sultan and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. When people fight evil I immediately consider them Übermensch, absolutely independently of race. Sultan and Hirsi Ali are “overmen” in this sense.

    But they’re exceptions. What anti-jihadists are too afraid to think is that the race issue is intertwined with the West’s suicidal Islamophilia. Not many hours ago I re-published Fjordam’s book “Defeating Eurabia” in one of my blogs and I am stuck by the fact that, according to the blog’s STATS, I already got quite a few visitors on the chapter about anti-white racism. Bruce Bawer, who has met Fjorman, fails to see that race is paramount in the Western anti-jihad cause, thus Bawer doesn’t like BNP either.

    I believe that Bawer et al are comparatively timid. I tend to think that today’s situation in Europe is so serious that we may well need a dictator (in a previous comment I talked about Franco) just in order that, after the far-right dictator is gone, the pendulum hopefully swings to a middle position. (The position of the pendulum nowadays is more dangerous than that of Europe in the 1930s.) But that’s perhaps too a machiavelic thought for a mere blog post…

  44. But that’s perhaps too a machiavelic thought for a mere blog post… — Cesar Tort

    Perhaps, twice.

    Certainly Chile benefitted greatly from Pinochets time in office. He kept the burgeousie intact along with the institutions of democracy and private property and capitalist markets.

    Europe still has a chance to avoid some extreme ugliness. Perhaps this time they will learn a different lesson than that which WW2 taught them.

  45. Today I was thinking about a book I read long time ago: Stefan Zweig’s “The World of Yesterday”: a beautiful insight of how most Europeans became nationalistic psychos just prior to the beginning of the 1st WW. Zweig and a small group of thinking people were the only sane ones left in a Continent gone mad.

    The thought occurred to me that, like Zweig just before the big war, today’s Europeans are in the need of some “extreme ugliness” in order to recover their sanity. Only when matters turn really ugly you can detonate a Weltanschauung.

    “The white man conquered the world and then suffered a nervous breakdown, a kind of collective neurosis shared by an entire civilization. Dozens of nations across an entire continent are being deliberately destroyed and the natives stripped off their lands and culture. This represents perhaps the greatest crime of our age yet it is hardly talked about, and if it is, it is celebrated.” —Fjordman

    Europe has sinned against the holy ghost of their self-identity. Fjordman, however, doesn’t explain why this happened. In my unpublished book I describe it as “growth panic”, a phrase I stole from psychohistorian Lloyd deMause. In a nutshell, let’s take the sci-fi 1956 film “Forbidden Planet”. The psychohistorical model is complicated and in a mere post I can only convey the idea through a film image: when civilizations reach its peak, the “monsters of the Id” may destroy them.

    Pace Larry Auster, I’m closer to Mark Steyn in that Europe needs to be ruthlessly castigated –now. Even Obama’s U.S. needs a good spanking. However, given the astronomic extent of today’s betrayal, Europe needs something far more ugly. And that’s why I think that fascist parties ought to reach power. Only after a nightmarish civil war Europeans will finally see the utter stupidity of their self-hate; of their anti-Americanism and anti-Israel stance; of their demographic suicidal rates among themselves; of the cultural relativism and multiculturalist lie. Cultural relativism is a whispering demon behind all of this mess. I have uploaded a YouTube video insulting Franz Boas and the anthropologists who first advanced the cultural relativist ideology.

    Too bad I speak in Spanish…

  46. The Senitel,

    I’m culturally still British. I don’t really forsee myself spelling English like that one Noah Webster! But also since I now study in the US and serve in the ROTC, I wouldn’t refrain from performing an civic duties expected of an American.

  47. Vikrant,

    Now this really is an easy question, with a very simple answer, and consider the oath you took upon entry to the US armed forces – do you consider yourself to be ‘as American as it gets’ as well as “as British as it gets” too?

  48. I won’t calssify myself “as American as it gets” if thats what you are asking. Culturally speaking though there isn’t much difference beyond the superficialities.

  49. I understand you CT, but what I hope to avoid is Civil War in Europe…that is still avoidable with some lessor ugliness. I dont wish the greator ugliness on Europe.

    I certainly am with Mark Steyn, on ruthlessly criticising Europe and the Western Left.

    You are missing the Western Left’s ideologically driven total war on the West from the inside in your analysis, who took advantage of the Wests, “Monsters of the ID,” perhaps “White Guilt” is a better term… to the fullest.

  50. I don’t know why I missed the Left. In Latin America the Left has been responsible of great evil. Mexican Nobel Prize winner of literature Octavio Paz has written much about it.

    I tend to think that, however different and often contradictory, the “Id” forces which created the world wars and the present state of self-destructive affairs have similar roots. It’s time to speak out. The basic etiology of the paranoid white guilt is understandable in a deMausean model of growth panic. In the near future I’ll talk about it in my blog and perhaps link it here.

  51. I see, so you don’t consider yourself to be truly American and yet you serve in their Armed Forces having sworn an oath to “bear true faith and allegiance” and you go on to my mock my identity again by saying that there isn’t any real difference between Britons and Americans anyway.

    Which tells us all, as if we didn’t already know, that you are not even remotely “as British as it gets.”

    You have sworn allegiance to another country (and joining a professional army is not a civic duty), you trivialise the unique identity of the British people, you speak of the Taliban ethnically as “my people” and you claim to have at least three incompatible identities.

    Like I said, its not your fault, it is the fault of successive UK Governments who have denigrated the British and their identify to the point that everyone thinks they can be British just be saying they are and / or holding one of the passports that the government throws around like confetti.

  52. Dont put words in my mouth, i dont speak of Taliban as “my people”, I’m a descendent of Hindu Sindhis a people who were exterminated in 1947 during the creation of Islamic republic of Pakistan. Genetically speaking Taliban are related to me, i brought it up to illustrate to people that not everyone thinks in terms of genetic affinity.

    I’m not trivialising British identity, all I meant as a Briton, i can identify with core values of what it means to be an American. I’m a recent immigrant to America, hence culturally speaking the British identity trumps everything else, maybe 50 years down the line it might be a different story.

    The very fact that you accusing me of co-opting your identity (i was born in Brighton hello?) speaks volumnes. Have the likes of Anjem Choudhary made you soo cynical that you cant concieve of a “Paki” being proud of Britain and everything it stads for? Last time Britain was in trouble 2.5 million men from India marches half way across the world to die in the trenches of Africa and northern Italy…

  53. Vikrant —

    Gates of Vienna’s rules about comments require that they be civil, temperate, on-topic, and show decorum. Your comment violated the last of these rules. We keep a PG-13 blog, and exclude foul language, explicit descriptions, and epithets. This is why I deleted your comment.

    Use of asterisks is an appropriate alternative.


    Vikrant said…

    P.S What do you think of my other ethnic kinsmen then? The Gurkhas, who have been f****d over by our system while asylum seekers get a free ride eh?

  54. vikrant,

    It would seem there is more rant then vik.

    It is you who speaks of your racial kin as “My people” and expound that “My closest ethnic cousins would be the Taliban” so where exactly have I put words in your mouth?

    And yes, you did trivialise British identity – you said “there isn’t much difference” between the Americans and the British, meaning that the two identities are largely spurious; intangible; non-existent. Again, I find that very offensive.

    And you have clearly chosen where your loyalties lay – with the US and have sworn allegiance to the US and serve in their armed forces.

    As for the Gurkha’s, I know them well, because I am as British as it gets, I know where my loyalties lie and I served my country for many years and I campaign for Gurkha’s right to equal pay and British citizenship, as is evidenced on my blog.

    But again, you confuse your identity even further and make a gratuitous slight to the Gurkha’s – I know they would not like this – by claiming that they are ethnically the same as the Taliban.

    And finally, not all of those men who marched from India to Europe in WW2 fought for Britain; a sizeable sum also fought for the Nazis.


  55. All this unprovoked hostility is enlightening. You are in effect insinuating that i am proud to genetically related to the Taliban, which infact is untrue.

    Gurkhas are descendents of Hindu Rajputs who went east under their leader Bappa Rawal, I’m a descendent of the Rajputs. Taliban are mostly Punjabi-Pashto, who are also Indo-Aryan like the Gurkhas. Gurkhas like Rajputs form the Hindu warrior clans, making them die hard enemies of Islam.

    As for Indians who fought for the Nazis, it was only about 1 out of 10 who ended up at POWs actually fought for the Nazis. A vast majority over 200000 died fighting the Nazis. You are trivialising sacrifices of men like my grand uncle who lays buried in Monte Cassino.

    At any rate, this seems to be getting no where. You dont know me in person and frankly it isn’t for you to question my Britishness. I see from your blog that your main concern is defending England from depravations of Islamists… Good luck with that!

  56. There is no unprovoked hostility here at all. Nor any insinuations of any kind; your own words have been presented back to you – that is all.

    There is justified offence however, at your contemptuous trivialising of my identity, and you cavalier attitude towards it. And that has been clearly demonstrated here, and I think it is obvious to any reasonable minded person that you have now merely chosen to ‘put’ on another identify – that of an American – with the same ease that people change clothes.

    The Gurkha’s are not, as per your claim, ethnically related to the Taliban at all, a fact that you now seem to acknowledge only when challenged on it and speaking the truth – pointing out historical fact about the Indians who fought for the Nazis – does not detract from any other facts in any way whatsoever.

    And it hs been carefully explained to you why I have every right to question your Britishness: “Given that you carry a British passport whilst serving another countries armed forces and proclaiming ancestral affinity with an enemy that Britain is at war with, I have every right to question your allegiance.”

    Good luck with finding out your real identity.

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