Dymphna’s post on Friday about Mukhtar Mai included the following assertion about pederasty under Islam:
…they don’t call it pedophilia in Muslim countries, nor do they consider anal rape of boys by older men as homosexual behavior if a man is the aggressor against the boy. Those acts are just standard operating procedure and this allows them to get around the strictures of Sharia law.
This provoked a question from Pastorius:
I’ve got a question. How does one document this statement?
The reason I am asking is because I have read these kinds of statements about Islamic society many times, but, there is no documentation.
This is not to say that I don’t believe that this kind of thing exists. I think it does exist in primitive societies all over the world. It exists in most prisons as well. And, of course, what is prison life, if not primitive life?
The thing is, as I can not document the above statement, when I have posted such things on my blog, I expect that liberals will think I am simply posting slander against Islam. I would really prefer to document what I write about, rather than going on anecdotes.
Dymphna responded to Pastorius, citing some sources that she has used in the past and providing additional information.
Then ik — a frequent commenter here at Gates of Vienna — supplied a reference to an article (originally found in The Times, but no longer available) about pederasty as it is traditionally practiced by the Pashtuns in Afghanistan. Correspondent Tim Reid was reporting from Kandahar four years ago:
Now that Taleban rule is over in Mullah Omar’s former southern stronghold, it is not only televisions, kites and razors which have begun to emerge. Visible again, too, are men with their ashna, or beloveds: young boys they have groomed for sex.
Kandahar’s Pashtuns have been notorious for their homosexuality for centuries, particularly their fondness for naïve young boys. Before the Taleban arrived in 1994, the streets were filled with teenagers and their sugar daddies, flaunting their relationship.
It is called the homosexual capital of south Asia. Such is the Pashtun obsession with sodomy — locals tell you that birds fly over the city using only one wing, the other covering their posterior — that the rape of young boys by warlords was one of the key factors in Mullah Omar mobilising the Taleban.
Mr. Reid goes on to describe the changes instituted by the Taliban as they imposed their strict interpretation of Sharia, including the now-infamous practice of toppling stone walls onto homosexual offenders.
But the Taliban have been hustled into the dustbin of history, and the traditional ways are re-emerging:
‘In the days of the Mujahidin, there were men with their ashna everywhere, at every corner, in shops, on the streets, in hotels: it was completely open, a part of life,’ said Torjan, 38, one of the soldiers loyal to Kandahar’s new governor, Gul Agha Sherzai.
‘But in the later Mujahidin years, more and more soldiers would take boys by force, and keep them for as long as they wished. But when the Taleban came, they were very strict about the ban. Of course, it still happened —the Taleban could not enter every house — but one could not see it.’
But for the first time since the Taleban fled, in the past three days, one can see the pairs returning: usually a heavily bearded man, seated next to, or walking with, a clean-shaven, fresh faced youth. There appears to be no shame or furtiveness about them, although when approached, they refuse to talk to a western journalist.
‘They are just emerging again,’ Torjan said. ‘The fighters too now have the boys in their barracks. This was brought to the attention of Gul Agha, who ordered the boys to be expelled, but it continues. The boys live with the fighters very openly. In a short time, and certainly within a year, it will be like pre-Taleban: they will be everywhere.’
What is one to make of all this? Does NAMBLA have a position paper on the overthrow of the Taliban?
Islam holds sway over a large part of the world where brutality has been the way of life for millennia. In Islamic tribal cultures, women are a scarce commodity, hoarded by rich and powerful men, leaving unattached men in the same situation as men in prison.
And the outcome is the same: the young and the weak become the “nancy boys” of the older and more powerful men. A culture of pederasty develops, consisting of dominant men and their catamites. Raised on a regimen of brutality, the young boys grow up to inflict it on the next generation.
Talk about a “cycle of violence.”
Pastorius and Baron:
You may find this a useful reference regarding pedophilia in Afghanistan. The CBC radio program The Current broadcast an article (with interview) on this topic on October 20, 2003. The Afghan they interviewed stated the Taliban were just as guilty but, being more hypocritical, engaged in this practice more discretely.
Here is a program link, the interview is archived (need Realplayer). Scroll down to Part 3 “Warlord Sexual Abuse”. At the bottom of the page there is an audio link to Part 3. The pedophilia section starts at about the 16 minute mark if you want to skip other Afghan reports.
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/2003/200310/20031020.html
I can feel the wrath of the Baron descending upon me for not using link tags. Mea culpa in advance. 😉
In case the link doesn’t properly show due to length, here is the link to The Current’s past shows log. Go into 2003 and look for October 20, 2003. This should take you to the program noted above.
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/logs.html
John B — actually, since your URL wasn’t wide enough to screw up the page, you’re off the hook this time!
But don’t let it happen again…
Trifkovik deals with this in sword of the phrophet.
What is more odd is the obsession of some western homosexuals with a movement that advocates their slaughter. Justin Raimondo is typical of this idiocy but far from isolated.
Baron:
Aiee! That photo of you terrifies me.
Baron,
Isn’t it funny only guys are commenting on this thread?
Are you familiar with Paul Bowles, the author of The Sheltering Sky? I believe he was a pedophile. I say this because he had a story which was, specifically about that subject, and the subject was alluded to in other stories. He lived out most of his later years in Morocco. I suspect his pedophilia was the reason he moved there. He was friends with Allen Ginsburgh, who visited him in Morocco often. Ginsburgh was a member of NAMBLA. That didn’t come out until after he died.
slightly OT
You might probably already know this, but there is a Pashto movie (English subtitles) called “Osama” (nothing to do with OBL) which has very good coverage of what life was like for women under the Taliban rule. It was made by an Afghan director so you view things from the Afghan point of view – the dvd also has an interview with the director where he points that all the incidents in the movie are true incidents. (while watching keep in mind that these are the people whose ancestors built the Bamiyan buddhas)
Baron
When the British more or less ran things in that area of the world, several contemporary and more recent commentators noted that the military officers who were detached from their regiments to serve in the middle east were at least of non-standard sexuality. There different onions as to whether the local culture was more tolerant, or they were just taking advantage of the situation. Since local complaints of flagrant behavior got officers in trouble elsewhere I would suspect the more of the former.
—————————-
But a question – like did the chicken come before the egg or did the egg come before the chicken?
From what I have read of the beginning of Islam most of the practices regarding the status of women sere well established before Mohamed. Limiting men to four wives who must be (mis)treated equally was something of an improvement.
I am wondering if we are talking of cultural traits that existed prior to Islam or something that was created was an unintended consequence of Islam?
Does Islam, like Christianity dealing with similar situations, provide a basis to reform culture?
Do we have similar behavior in non-Middle Eastern Islamic countries?
In other words is there a possibility of some sort of effective reform in Islam?
Pastorius — Dymphna might have been on this thread except that she is not feeling well right now. She said to tell you that when she doesn’t feel well, her PTSD tends to kick in. When she heard what I was writing about, she decided that she would not even read this post.
As for Ginsberg — I met him once, back in the early ’70s, and smoked dope with him. Yes, it’s true — I shared spittle with Allen Ginsberg himself!
He came to our campus to give a talk, and I was on the poetry editorial board of the college magazine. The editor invited him to sit around with the campus hippie/intellectuals and get high.
He wasn’t very interesting, to my mind. He didn’t say much — when he wasn’t inhaling deeply and holding his breath, he was chanting “OOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMM” very loudly.
My only personal contact with High Literature. So to speak.
Hank — I didn’t mean to say that Islam was a contributing factor to the pederasty; I don’t have an opinion on that idea.
But Islam seems to thrive in brutal tribal cultures, which is where catamites are so common. It think a “mutually arising” situation is probably what we are looking at here.
It’s no coincidence that Michael Jackson packed up his sordid little act and took it to Bahrain, is it?
The only thing I can add here is anecdotal. In college I had a professor who was an expert on the origins of Christianity and spent much time in the Middle East and Greece. He was also homosexual and spoke with a certain nostalgia of wonderful times with the young men of Palestine. It is that that has always made me a bit suspicious about the common talk that the Islamic Middle East is virulently anti-Gay. I suspect the reality is that there is some sort of accomodation and acceptance, but it is kept low key and probably not interpreted as *real* homosexuality. Somewhat like some folks think blow jobs are not real sex and don’t constitute adultery. Remember that one? However, it is likely that the Salafists don’t share that old accomodation. Islam does seem to have its fads and fancies and I am not one of those who say it can never change. But not all change is for the good.
I also met Ginsburgh once. However, I did little more than say hello, and listen to him talk.
I like his poetry. But, who friggin cares? Poetry doesn’t matter nearly as much as the fact that he messed up the lives of children, and no one talked about it when he was alive.
Good point about Michael Jackson. And, sadly, Arthur C. Clarke as well. I wonder what other names others can add to this list.
Some links about sex
and Islam and Muslims.
One
Two
Three
Four
Five
Six
Or you can use this Google search and find 18,200 hits.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
Pastorius — You’re right about Clarke. But notice that he does not live in a Muslim society. I don’t know which part of Sri Lanka he lives in — Hindu or Buddhist — but it’s not Muslim, as far as I know.
Another article:
April 3, 2002: Kandahar’s Lightly Veiled Homosexual Habits By Maura Reynolds, LATimes.
Sorry no url.
A couple of thoughts. This kind of activity I don’t think can really be linked to brutality or backwardsness per se. As abhorrent as I think 99% of Americans (myself included, just to be clear!) find pedophilia and pederasty, it’s been rather common worldwide and historically. The ancient greek pic on the post is an example, and it was certaintly true in Byzantium, and to a slightly lesser extent (possibly) in Rome as well. The foundations of Western civilization built on pedophilic civilizations?
It definitely happened in the Ottoman Empire, and as Baron mentions there were rules governing the conduct–basically if the kid hasn’t reached puberty it was ok, if the youth is bearded (ie, a man) can be punishable by death. I can quote some 16th century Ottoman penal codes if anyone is interesting (and a side note–for sexual offenses in which the punishment was a fee [bestiality is one that springs to mind], Christians and Jews had to pay 1/2 what Muslims would pay–and there were often different grades of payment for rich, poor etc–how egalitarian!
From everything I’ve read, as mentioned in numerous posts, Central Asia, AFghanistan, Pakistan have a long history of prominent pedophilic activities (one wonders perhaps if they date back to Hellenistic practices and Alexander’s stint?). It’s been awhile, but I remember reading an excerpt of a Brit Colonial officer in the early days of Karachi who was complaining about the number of male brothels–and how at any time a large number of Brits could be found in them.. Hardly limited there though even regionally, transvestite Hindu temple prostitutes in India eg.
Certaintly mention of it elsewhere too. Lawrence of Arabia–raped by Turks? Had himself an Arab young boy “companion”? E.M. Forster likewise if I recall correctly rather enjoyed his time in Alexandria as a youth.
As far as the Arab world, homosexuality is not a subject you talk about. Many countries (such as Egypt) have harsh (death) penalties. Don’t know more than this with regards to modern day prevalence etc. Likewise for Turkey, I’ve heard no reference to thriving pedophilic activity, but who knows. Rumi–apparently the world’s best selling poet??–wrote frequently on homosexual relations (and died in today’s Turkey, though he was Persian speaking and ethnically).
another interesting thing about punishment of sexual offenses according to the Shariah–well, many/most offenses require 4 witnesses in order to convict. Just how often do four people provide witness.. Interesting loophole more or less.
So what do the Catholic church and Islam have in common…no won’t go there…
Adaneshju —
This kind of activity I don’t think can really be linked to brutality or backwardsness per se… it’s been rather common worldwide and historically. The ancient greek pic on the post is an example, and it was certaintly true in Byzantium, and to a slightly lesser extent (possibly) in Rome as well. The foundations of Western civilization built on pedophilic civilizations?
I would expect all of those examples you cite to be pretty brutal. Maybe not as brutal as modern Saudi Arabia, but brutal, nonetheless.
The general rule would seem to be this:
The less a society brutalizes its boys, and the greater the possibility of marriage for young men, the less common non-consensual sexual relationships of grown men with boys will be.
Just a rough guide. Northern Europe never practiced polygyny to the extent that the great Near Eastern civilizations did. Maybe that’s why fewer Vikings were inclined to buggery? I don’t know.
But at the time of the ancient Greeks the practice was probably almost universal. It’s hard to tell, because it wasn’t a subject that historians really concentrated on.
Just as it’s difficult to find reliable data on it now in Muslim countries. It’s just not talked about. There’s no sociological survey on the topic in the Arab world whose data one could trust. How many respondents would tell the truth?
Russell Hoban’s novel Riddley Walker (set in the distant future after the collapse of civilization) captured the flavor of degraded primitive sexualpractices well. Men, when kept from the company of women, buggered beardless little boys. That’s just the way life was.
And is, in some places.
The brutalized, subjugated women and boys of Islam must see freedom. Only a barbaric society would ignore this.
http://bloodlesslinchpinsofislamicterrorism.blogspot.com/
Baron,
Right with your general rule there. I would add also that systems that focus negatively on sex, encourage chastity etc, can have the same result. Thus much of the problem in the Catholic church today (IMHO).
Basically, people were meant to have sex, and to do so without baggage. Lots of issues arise from that, whether it derives from lifelong chastity or whether it derives from misogyny etc. I’m not saying these cases are true ALL the time or even MOST of the time, but just observations.
Baron,
Sorry about the mistake about Arthur C. Clarke. Shows you how much I know about Sri Lanka. I knew that there were Buddhists and Hindus there, but I thought there were also a lot of Muslims.
But, Pastorius, your point is still well-taken, because the larger issue about tribal pederasty is not just Islam but the brutality of primitive Third World cultures.
Most such cultures, however, happen to be Islamic.
You know, before I read Russell Hoban’s book, I wasn’t even aware of the practice we’ve been talking about here. Then I started noticing that whenever I read about the Third World, non-consensual buggery seemed to be commonplace.
It made me thankful for where and when I was born.
Basically, people were meant to have sex, and to do so without baggage.
Sorry, but where do you get that idea? It is certainly not true historically, which indicates to me that it is *not* the natural human condition, by definition. In fact, it strikes me that unregulated sex is the mark of failing societies, whether cause or consequence I can’t say. Just because people *want* sex doesn’t mean it is, or should be, without consequence or baggage.
Chuck,
Simple. Everywhere you have restrictions on sex, you get other things happening. From celibate priests, to the extensively discussed Islamic societies, to classical Greek misogyny, to prisons today, to countless other examples. I’m not saying I think having rampant free love is the right moral thing to do–which I DON’T. Nor do I think it’s particularly healthy or advantageous.
but I do think psychologically, people were meant to have sex, and artificial limits on sex have side effects.
I also think it’s pretty interesting you think “unregulated sex” is a trademark of failing societies. Examples? Sounds a rather Victorian mindset to me.
Examples? Sounds a rather Victorian mindset to me.
Most South African countries: Zimbabwe, Swaziland, South Africa, not to mention Russia after the revolution. Also the inner city ghettos here in the US. As to the Victorian mindset, I have never been that big on prostitutes.
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Well at least the Taliban is officially against this ‘Nancy Boys’ nonsense. No wonder Prez Ahmadmadmonkey says there are no Gays in Iran.
absurd thought –
God of the Universe claims
there are no Gay Muslims
no men attracted to men
none dream of little boys
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All real freedom starts with freedom of speech. If there is no freedom of speech there can be no real freedom.
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Philosophy of Liberty Cartoon
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Help Halt Terrorism Today!
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🙂
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