He truly believes in the myth of the soi-disant “moderate” Muslim.
Perhaps our Canadian readers can take up a collection to buy for Dr. Peterson the definitive book on Sharia law:
Reliance of the Traveller: The Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law Umdat Al-Salik
The reason I’m not suggesting the excellent work of, say, Robert Spencer or Bill Warner, is that in order to truly understand a subject – to “stand under” it – one has to begin by reading its own documents. The blurb on “Reliance” states:
This is a classic manual of fiqh rulings based on Shafi”i School of jurisprudence and includes original Arabic texts and translations from classic works of prominent Muslim scholars such as al Ghazali, al Nawawi, al Qurtubi, al Dhahabi and others. It is an indispensable reference for every Muslim or student of Islam who needs to research on Islamic rulings on daily Muslim life.
The Baron will remember when it was that we bought our own copy (I find the past becoming one fluid succession of moments). But I well remember the price since I do all our online ordering. It cost $30.00 back then. Thus, when “Reliance” arrived, I was surprised to see how beautifully bound it was. I wondered then if it were not being subsidized by some Sunni group (not a book for Shi’ites – another distinction Jordan Peterson will have to learn).
At the time, there were fewer than a dozen reader reviews and many of them were written by devout Muslims. The times have certainly changed; current top reviews (i.e., five-star verified purchases) are decidedly against the book whilst still recommending that one buy it.
Today the price stands at $56.00, but still worth it for those who want to be thoroughly informed about what it means to live under Sunni Sharia Law.
Here’s one review [edited]:
This is a must-read for everyone who wants to know more about Islam and the reason why we now see things happening that once were totally foreign to us (FGM, child brides, Women’s Rights or rather the lack thereof, Apartheid, yes!, hatred towards Jews or Gays). This book will show you why. It is the Islamic Law. Too often we are told “Islam is peace”, but when you start reading the Koran, Hadith and Sira, it turns out to be anything but.
We can no longer trust our politicians to inform us correctly on important matters like this. They are painfully ignorant of the intolerant message Islam spreads.
Don’t take me wrong, to each his own in terms of what one chooses to believe or follow is my view. However, when an ideology (not a religion!) is so aggressive in spreading its message and willing to back it up with the most abject violence seen in a very long time, one must ask the hard and difficult questions.
Since the people we appointed to do this for us are unwilling or unable, we must educate ourselves.
This book is not an easy read and I strongly suggest reading up on the Koran etc. before one attempts it. But when you do, you will not be disappointed. The knowledge you will gain is invaluable in any future debate you will have because you are now armed with the facts, not what some politician, pundit or vague website will say.
While I agree with most of this reviewer’s comment, I’d say that the Koran is not the first thing to read, but rather the endpoint of any scholar’s study. Unless one understands how abrogation works, the mish-mash of the Koran is confusing.
Dr. Peterson will no doubt understand that concept (if he learns of it) since his scholarly digging into the early stories of the Bible (the Creation stories, Cain and Abel, et al) allowed him to understand their distillation as oral traditions long before they came to be written down. One thing my Scripture studies taught me was how fraught the process of textual codification must needs always be. By the time the threads of oral tradition have been woven into a luminous tapestry, the more unlikely or unverified strands have been removed.
Thus, while some people wanted The Gospel of Thomas codified as “the fifth gospel”, it didn’t make the final cut. For more information on this book, see here.
At any rate, Dr. Peterson has so far proved to be a man who follows the path of truth as far as any scholar I know. On the other hand, how will he learn about taqiyyah if he’s going to listen only to “moderate” Muslims? We can appreciate how very difficult it is to let go of that hope, since the Baron and I held onto it at first. Jesus said the truth will set you free; he forgot to add that on first learning it, the truth can make you darn miserable.
We will continue to hope that some Canadian can find a way to get a copy of “Traveller” to JBP. Sooner rather than later. Here’s the Canadian Amazon link.
He can “grow the hell up” and buy his own damn copy..He does have the time and the bucks..I’m thinking he’s probably already read it but is too confrontational as he already has enough on his plate for now..One thing at a time eh..lol He’ll have to find a safe place and space outside of Toronto before demolishing Islam..
medge, where in God’s creation is there a safe place from which to demolish the claims of Islam?
Does he really have sufficient funds to hire the necessary 24/7 security guards it would take to create a safe enough space to continue living? It would eat up all his plans for creating an accredited alternative educational space for young men who can’t find room to exist/flourish within the current corrupt university system.
Forgot to say hope your relative is still coming along and the Baron made out OK. .
What Dr. Peterson needs is one of Stephen Coughlin’s famous eight-hour briefings on Islamic law. After that he wouldn’t believe in the Moderate Muslim anymore.
If anyone knows how to make contact with Dr. Peterson, I can help put him in touch with Maj. Coughlin.
Maybe Cathy Newman?..I’m sure she’d be glad to help..
No “lol” on that one. .
Reliance of the traveller can be downloaded for free as a pdf. file.
Can’t find any direct contacts for him anywhere. You could ask one of his agents:
Justin Edbrooke: justin.edbrooke@caa.com
JP is approaching the problem from another way. One cannot resist unless there is belief in one’s own culture and he is trying to reassure young white males especially of the values of their culture and improve self esteem. He doeesn’t really need to know anything about Islam to do that. He is taking a positive approach which I think is overlooked too often.
I don’t agree that JBP’s “positive approach” is overlooked at all. His work is spreading far and wide. Not just young white males, but also non-whites. And women. Though I agree that YWM are most in need of his work.
Anyway, this li’l ol’ white lady (if we Irish are considered white; I’ve been told otherwise) watches his videos every day and twice on Sunday. Not only is he interesting in his own right, but he’s explaining in great detail the important texts I studied in my college years. It’s a great walk down memory lane. I do wish he’d talk a bit about Mircea Eliade, though. And Gabriel Marcel.
You can go here to download Reliance of The Traveller in multiple formats.
https://archive.org/details/RelianceOfTheTraveller1_201712
Why shell out 50 dollars when you can read it for free here?
https://reliancewp.wordpress.com/
And the good bits are ready highlighted!
This site looks like the Nuh Ha Mim Keller translation because sections K32.1 – K32.4 are not translated. Keller deems them not to be relevant. They deal with Slavery, which is highly relevant. Keller might have been embarrassed by their content as they deal with the way female slaves can be used sexually.
I found the following translation of these sections at a web site maintained by the MD Harris Institute. What follows can be found at https://mdharrismd.com/2015/03/03/translation-of-the-manual-of-islamic-sacred-law/
———————————————————
Nuh Ha Mim Keller translated Reliance of the Traveler from Arabic into English. In the section entitled manumission (which is about all of slavery, not just about freeing slaves as the title would suggest), Keller did not translate sections K32.1, 32.2, 32.3 and 32.4. He wrote “the following four sections have been left untranslated (into English) because the issue is no longer current…” To his credit, he left the Arabic text in the book. With the increasing importance of the Shariah throughout the world, it should all be translated. After all, it is not clear that groups like ISIS consider any section in Islamic Sacred Law “not current”.
I looked on the internet for a reliable translation of these portions of the Shariah but was unable to locate one. Therefore I asked for help from some Arab friends and they provided the following:
K32.1 Women and children of the land that has been conquered are considered booty of the war and they are considered slaves. Everything belongs to the Imam first and after he takes a fifth of the booty the rest is given to the soldiers who were involved in the war. If the slave becomes a Muslim this conversion does not set him free and he will stay a slave. Captivity is the absolute consequence of Muslims war with non-Muslims and is not exclusive to elementary Jihad or defensive Jihad, even in the presence of the prophet or Imam and with their permission. If Jihad was done without the permission of prophet or Imam, all the booty is given to the Imam.
K32.2 If the father and mother were brought as slaves all the children are considered slaves. Being a slave is inherited from parents to child. If the parents convert to Islam the children will still be slaves, and they belong to the owner of their family. The master can sell the children to someone else without the parents’ consent. Male slaves and female slaves are considered the property of their master and he is allowed to treat them the way he wants. The satisfaction of the slave does not matter. The slave is responsible to keep his/her master satisfied. The slave eats, drinks and wears whatever the master decides and must live where the master says. He/she should clothe him/herself the way the master decides and speak and behave the way the master says.
K32.3 The master who owns a woman slave can use her in any way for his sexual pleasure; he can marry her if he wants. In intercourse the satisfaction of the female slave is not important at all. The female slave does not have to be Muslim convert. Even if she is pagan the sexual intercourse is Halal (permissible). A female Muslim is not allowed to have sexual relation with her slave without marriage. The male slaves are considered “mahram (impermissible, taboo)”. The Koran has emphasized this point. The Mola (Master) not only has the right to marry his female slave without her consent but he is also allowed to lend her to another man without her consent to have sexual intercourse without marriage. He also has the authority to marry her to one of his male slaves.
K32.4 The master is allowed to cancel the marriage of his male and female slaves without “Talagh (divorce)”. It is enough for the master to order them to separate and they must obey. The female slave does not have to hide her hair, neck and head while saying Muslim prayer “Namaz “. The Hijab of the female slave must be different from those of the wife and daughters of the master.
There are other portions which Nuh Ha Mim Keller did not translate, including e1.6, e1.18, e6.5, e7.7, e10.2, e12.4, e12.11-13, e14.4, e14.8, f2.4, f4.6, f4.13, f5.9, f6.4, f8.4, f8.8, f8.26, f14.7, h2.3, h2.8, h3.8, i3.7, k4.6, k5.8, k7.4, k16.4, k23.1, k24.1, l10.7, m3.5, m3.14, m6.4, m6.6, m6.11, m7.3, m10.11, m11.15, n3.6, n4.2, n4.4, n8.2, n8.4, n9.4, n9.12, n9.20, n10.1, o3.7, o3.11, o5.3, o12.3, o13.10, o19.2, o19.4, o20.3. We will translate these as we are able in the future.
In his translation and explanation of Reliance of the Traveler, Nuh Ha Mim Keller provided a service to individuals learning about Islam. However, his unwillingness to translate all of it does a disservice to those students, others throughout the world, and Islam itself. As Muslims attempt to make Shariah a growing part of our world, they must help the rest of us to understand it, all of it, and make our own honest choices.
I am one of a group of people with more time than sense who transcribed the Reliance from PDF to produce this WordPress version. The Archiv.Org version was the last PDF of the scanned book still up on the internet at the time (Keller had clearly been getting them all taken down). If we had known it would be replaced (see above) we wouldn’t have bothered but our version in Word does at least have the advantage of being easier to copy from than PDF.
We would love to include all the slavery sections, and probably highlight them in red, but we know no Arabic speakers. We are sceptical of Harris’s translations because of the relative length of the sections in English and Arabic. I know nothing about Arabic but it seems odd that k32.2 and k32.3 should both be 9.5 lines long in English but so markedly different in Arabic:
k32.1 English 8 Arabic 7.5
k32.2 English 9.5 Arabic 3.5
k32.3 English 9.5 Arabic 8
k32.4 English 4.5 Arabic 3
I wonder if GoV know anyone with fluent Arabic who would be willing to translate.
Hi Hal,
I understand your caution but am surprised by your reply. My .pdf download from https://archive.org/details/RelianceOfTheTraveller1_201712 (See comment from LisavG above) has both English and Arabic side by side for the entire text except K 32.1-4 which have only the Arabic.
I can’t speak Arabic either but I have an Iranian friend who has a friend who can. Alternatively perhaps could GoV get Raymond Ibrahim who often writes on Jihad Watch to provide a translation?
Can you provide the url of the site that shows the English and Arabic of K32.1-4 side by side?
Peter – There is no site with the English and the Arabic side by side. I was comparing the English from Dr Harris, provided by you, with the Arabic in the Archiv.Org version. It is the ratio of line lengths in the English compared with the ratio of line lengths in the Arabic that I’m getting at…the ratio of ratios you could say.
I’m not saying Dr Harris is wrong but it looks very odd to a non-Arabic speaker doesn’t it?
Ideally someone like Raymond Ibrahim or Mark Durie (who has criticised Keller’s translation) would translate it…not a friend of a friend but someone we can all accept is reliable (and on our side). I would accept GoV’s endorsement as well.
No offence to your friend but I would want to be sure I was putting something accurate in the text. I really hope we can get it translated in order to expose even further what is in the wretched book.
Hi Hal,
This is a reply to your reply below this one to mine above this one as there seems to be a limit on the depth of replies available on this site.
Thanks for your reply and I agree that friend-of-friend translations are not a good idea in principle. As Dymphna has replied to several posts in this stream, we know she is following it so perhaps we should leave it her to make arrangements with Raymond Ibrahim, assuming he would be willing to do a translation. A completely new post on the GoV web site could then draw the attention of all of us to a trustworthy translation of this very important and revealing section of the Reliance.
Over and out.
Now Ilia you can do me a favour- back up your claims about Christians massacring pagan Greeks with dates and links and the name of the Christian ruler/ rulers responsible.
I simply don’t believe you. If you want to convince me you will have to provide facts (and I do mean dates ,names of leaders and battles)which can either be verified or disproved.
You will have to do better if you wish to convince me
One would get the impression from this, that the Greeks were singled out for particular brutality by the Byzantines; many other pagans suffered a similar fate.
The answer is yes .
Islam is a clear and present danger to the West ,to the East to the entire non-Muslim population of the globe .
And because it is violently sectarian it is also a danger to itself.
We should stand back and let the Shia and the Sunnis kill each other off .
Then we can pick off the weakened survivor.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake
Dr. Peterson isn’t that smart; he also believes that the Nazis were “right wing”.
JBP isn’t a historian; he’s a tenured professor of psychology with extensive clinical experience. The fact that he doesn’t grok that Nazis were left-wing means he’s not au courant regarding that period of history.
That lacuna in his knowledge has nothing at all to do with being smart.
“Jesus said the truth will set you free; He forgot to add that on first learning it, the truth can make you darn miserable”.
I guess He did NOT mention the latter because it was not necessary yet in His time.
The main reason why the truth is making most of us us so miserabele today, are the dire consequences of the expansion of the (so-called) “religion” of “peace”, and this agressive supremacist ideology only came 6 centuries after Him.
Does “Reliance of the Traveller” allow one to look up anything about Islam? Here is a specific question. Quran 9:29 says, “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.”
I do not know what this “Last Day” means. Where is this concept defined in Islamic scripture? Will “Reliance of the Traveller” allow one to look up where in the Quran “the Last Day” is defined? Somebody who has a copy, please look it up. And let’s cut to the chase: Where in the Quran *is* “the Last Day” defined?
No, it doesn’t allow you to look up anything about Islam. ROTT is a legal manual / text book (sharia).
However, it does have a few references to the Last Day, including the following at page 813:
“u3.6 To believe in the Last Day means the Day of Resurrection, called the last because it is not followed by night. Believe means to be convinced that it will come to pass with all it implies, including the resurrection of the dead, their reckoning, the weighing of their good deeds against their bad ones, their passing over the high, narrow bridge that spans the hellfire (sirat), and that some will be put in hell out of justice, and some in paradise out of Allah’s pure generosity.”
As mentioned in some comments above, ROTT can be found online in various e-formats.
If you manage to find a PDF copy, make sure it’s in searchable PDF format. (Some are not in searchable format, and they’re unwieldy.)
No, the Reliance doesn’t allow you to look up anything about Islam. It’s a manual of jurisprudence but not an encyclopaedia.
But the Last Day (the Day of Judgment) is defined in section u3.6 of the Reliance:
“u3.6 To believe in the Last Day means the Day of Resurrection, called the last because it is not followed by night. Believe means to be convinced that it will come to pass with all it implies, including the resurrection of the dead, their reckoning, the weighing of their good deeds against their bad ones, their passing over the high, narrow bridge that spans the hellfire (sirat), and that some will be put in hell out of justice, and some in paradise out of Allah’s pure generosity. ”
That’s another advantage of the WordPress version, it’s individual books are easily searchable:
https://reliancewp.wordpress.com/2017/12/14/book-u-the-gabriel-hadith/
The phrase isn’t defined in the Koran. You can find all the instances using this Koranic search software:
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/
Ha! Beat me to it Dev.
Yes, we’re certainly singing from the same hymn sheet.
Moderate Muslims my [derriere]. Dr. Peterson is fancying a situation that these so-called moderate Muslims can prevail and tame the real Muslims and he spreads that kind of rubbish. But: if such solution did exist, they should have obtained the desired result during 14 centuries. Not? But there’s no evidences that such thing has ever happened.
Functional Societies? Yes, only if legalised robbery, murder and oppression is considered to be “functional”. Why did these moderate Muslems never could stop these things in their own societies? I understand: crossing the border suddenly changes the inner content of humans and their abilities. They could never create a better world in their home town but they emigrate to Canada to suck on the wealth and Dr. Peterson believes they will save Canada from savage Muslims. He finally took the bait.
Please let me tell you more about borders. Probably the most “classy” people who emigrated from Iran live in France. They pretend they are classless and moderate. But you don’t know their criminal businesses and their fathers’. That’s what most did: kept peasants and rug makers as slaves, giving the the minimum amount of food to keep them barely alive. Whipped their men to death. Committed adultery with their daughters. They also don’t forget to feed the Imams to keep the working class in ignorance. Then, some day, they collect the money and migrate to France. Some still have their business in their homelands.
Another one: London is the Paradise of the Imams and the place their kids obtain a college degree. These double-talking jives pretend to behave when abroad, but when they return the first thing they do is to send their boys to give me the message “sell your business or other”. You don’t know what sort of beasts these moderate Muslims really are because you don’t see them on other side of the border.
Mr. Peterson, now it’s my turn to tell you: “grow up!”
Since when were there ever 20 million Greeks to begin with, never mind 20 million Greeks killed by Christians? Even today you could only make up that number with the whole diaspora.
“Oh the protestants hate the catholics,
And the catholics hate the protestants.
And the hindus hate the moslems,
and everybody hates the jews!”
-Tom Lehrer, “National Brotherhood Week”, c1965.
Just checked wiki, and I’m delighted to read that he’s still with us, and will be ninety next month . Some years back, the actor Patrick Stewart was on BBC Radio 4’s “Desert Island Discs”; he chose a Tom Lehrer song as one of his eight, recalling that the’d become friends when Stewart was living in Los Angeles filming “Star Trek”.
Ilia, as far as I can see you are pretty smart.
Your posts are worth reading.
So , this dimphna woman is the owner of this site, so better respect her for that.
Reanalyse and place your ideas here ,so we can all enjoy
Peterson cannot start a fight with f ing muslims.He does not have power and he is already physically very weak.He has an autoimmune disease last year took its toll.
I bet you he disposed and hates Islam like all normal white Christians do.I will not expect him to be suicidal.
I think Peterson, does have a plan. In just 12 months he has become internationally known and currently on a world speaking tour. Is he just going to go back to Toronto and be a professor again, of does he have bigger plans? He’s also upset a lot of people on the way, leftists and transgender people being one example. Clearly he is an “islamoskeptic” at the very least. Maybe he has stronger views on the subject but is keeping them to himself at the moment. Probably doesn’t need the “Islamophobe” baggage right now which would surely close doors for him. Let’s wait and see.
I’m a bit tired of the knee jerk reactions on all sides. You will have to decide at some point whether you want to live life as a Pavlovian dog or a sentient human being.
What Peterson says in the video above is, we have a choice between dialogue and all out war. We cannot afford war because of its potential of complete annihilation.
That is a completely truthful statement whether you like it or not. Islam is not the one-dimensional problem many of you would like it to be for all the wrong reasons.
Another thing: what’s with the childish SNARK? Does it really give an invalid argument any weight when you suggest buying him a copy of a book? Or calling him “poor” Dr. Peterson? I doubt it.
Let us be careful to not fall into an ideological possession of our own.
My reaction was not “knee-jerk”. I’m hopeful that he, as a careful reader of texts, can actually learn what it is we’re dealing with. He has shown himself to be open to new ideas that go against the leftist version of “the religion of peace” p.c.
Nor was I being ‘snarky’. I was remembering our own journey to accepting the sad truth about Islam; it was arduous. When Tariq Ramadan suggested a hudna on stoning gays and adulterous women – this was more than ten years ago – I realized Islam was never, ever going to be compatible with Western thought. When this same man was arrested and jailed in France for a series of rapes, it brought back all the memories of painfully realizing what a vicious enemy was in our midst…but also hope, because France threw this so-called “prestigious” professor in jail to await trial.
The book I suggested is the best one I know for understanding, once and for all, that Islam is not a religion. That book shows it for what it is: a juridical, supremacist ideology.
I had thought of Peterson vis-a-vis Islam’s veneer among scholars in the West. But I had to wait until I ran across a short video in which he actually outlines his ideas about how to study this phenomenon.
Yes. Good idea. Let’s now attack Jordan Peterson, someone who is on our side. Does he suddenly have to be an expert on everything? The Right is becoming like the Left. Believe what we believe, or leave the church. The first feeble argument I have seen at Gates of Vienna. Please try harder.
if you read my post as an attack on Dr. Peterson, then you didn’t watch the video of his I posted.
1. He knows it’s going to be a lot of work to get up to scratch on the subject.
2. He also knows his own experience has told him there are moderate Muslims for he’s met them.
3. But he’s wondering – after his conversation with Ayaan Hirsi Ali – if Islam can be reformed.
Please try harder to read more carefully.
Feeble indeed.
Yes, Mark. I see a lot of People on GoV and the rest of the monorail “counterjihad” movement become increasingly what they profess to loathe.
With that kind of attitude, what are we even trying to preserve. Where IS the meaning in our own culture?
What about, instead of verbally smashing the perceived enemy, we started to build and create like Peterson does?
Why is it whenever I hear the word dialogue, I think of Neville Chamberlain. You can’t have a dialogue with Hitler, anymore than you can have a dialogue with Satan. Talking with peaceful muslim groups serves the islamist purpose very well, in that people like Dr. Peterson can be persuaded that some sort of peaceful islam exists.
There is only two things that matter when examining islam, the example of Mohammed and the structural texts that support the religion. As long as people are believing the texts and coming to the conclusion that they need to kill the infidel, then you will always have problems. What the peaceful majority of muslims believe is irrelevant. If they really want to make a lasting statement that denies the traditional islam, then their best option is very simple, understand what the texts teach and stop personally identifying as a muslim and with the religion. You can’t call yourself a Nazi without being associated with the ideology.
So now muslims are “Hitler” and Peterson is Chamberlain?
How much closer to the lunatic left do we become with that kind of reasoning?
Are you aware how that sounds like antifa?
Anybody they don’t like is “Hitler” too.
Ron:
If you re-read my post, most of my comments are concerned with islam and not muslims (with the exception of islamists). Hopefully you are familiar with the incredibly successful tactics that islam and the left deploys. If not, there are some great youtube videos that describe them (Bill Warner on islam, Yuri Bezmenov on the left).
I stand by my original comment that islam is “Hitler”. Most muslims are the victims of islam. Now, by the magical powers given to me, I now appoint you king of the world for the day. What are you going to do about a fascist ideology, other than degrade it to the point that no one wants to practice it anymore? I’d love to say that there is some other option and that negotiation is all we need to do, but “can’t we all get along” Neville made a huge mistake, and his mistake amplified the resulting horror thousands of times.
When societies face such issues they do fracture into two groups. The side that wins gets to write the history. Here’s your choice, do you want Antifa/Islam to write history or somebody else.