Alessandro Meluzzi is an Italian psychiatrist, writer, politician, and academic. Paolo Crepet is a psychiatrist, writer, and sociologist. Davide Piccardo is a Muslim activist and Huffington Post Italy contributor, the son of Hamza Piccardo.
The following video is from a TV panel show that aired last summer. It shows a discussion among the three men, plus the presenter — in which, it must be said, Dr. Meluzzi does most of the talking — about Islam and Europe.
The graphics that appear on the screen titled separately are translations of tweets from the audience that were shown on the screen at intervals during the panel discussion.
Many thanks to Elle Bowlly for the translation, and to Vlad Tepes for the subtitling:
Video transcript:
| 00:00 | “Reading certain comments you would get the impression that the root cause of the attacks | |
| 00:04 | is the Depressive State, more than the Islamic State. They want to | |
| 00:07 | defeat terrorism with Prozac.” (Enrico Mentana, TgLa7 director) | |
| 00:10 | Meluzzi, Mentana is already placing the Islamic State at the core of the issue, and then | |
| 00:15 | he plays on this particular narrative which once again is being applied to recent events. —Well, | |
| 00:21 | I find it downright embarrassing to debate this as a psychiatrist; an anthropologist or sociologist | |
| 00:26 | should be here instead. Anyway, dismissing such a serious matter as just being a mental disease, | |
| 00:31 | or a personality disorder, or a mood disorder —But it has been done since Nice onwards —something | |
| 00:35 | as serious as the epochal, geopolitical confrontation with Islam | |
| 00:39 | (a reality that I respect, observe, know a bit, and fear) | |
| 00:43 | is complete nonsense to me —So you agree when he says. —Yes! It was said in a very simplified | |
| 00:50 | manner. I mean, it would be like saying that | |
| 00:54 | since Goebbels made his wife and four kids commit suicide, | |
| 00:57 | or that when ethnic rapes were occurring in Bosnia… that the perpetrators were just some sick folks | |
| 01:03 | There, let’s imagine reducing Nazism, ethnic cleansing and genocide to a mere | |
| 01:07 | psychopathological factor. It’s obvious folly. | |
| 01:11 | Dismissing the narrative with a psychiatric label is indeed a pathology, | |
| 01:14 | but one belonging to the political, information and communications world. | |
| 01:18 | If anything, it’s a collective defense mechanism that I would ascribe | |
| 01:21 | to the world of repression, because it’s reductionist to the max. “They’re mad, they come from…” | |
| 01:26 | To understand better. —“a history of hardship.” —It’s our safety blanket. We want to stay calm. | |
| 01:32 | It’s OUR pathology, not wanting to call things by their name. To this pathology I would ascribe, | |
| 01:37 | if allowed, even Pope Bergoglio, who furthermore makes an absolutely erroneous statement, saying — | |
| 01:43 | Hey, don’t clap for me yet! He says: it’s not a religious war; it’s | |
| 01:47 | a business war. I would dare to say that the exact opposite is true. | |
| 01:52 | Because where Islam does business, e.g. Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, a multi-ethnic, | |
| 01:57 | [graphic] “Islam is love and peace”, but instead of going to an idyllic Islamic country, they come to the EU. How come? | |
| 02:00 | multicultural city where Chinese, Muslims, Indians and many religions | |
| 02:04 | coexist and everyone does business with each other, | |
| 02:08 | the situation remains calm overall. Wherever instead Islam reveals its harsh, fundamentalist | |
| 02:15 | conquest component, which is not a modern thing but has 1,500 years of history, and is even written | |
| 02:21 | in a constituent part of its very DNA, you have religious war (jihad), | |
| 02:24 | you have Shari’a, you have fundamentalism. | |
| 02:27 | Paolo Crepet. —I would dare to say rather that business is like mere artificial flavoring | |
| 02:30 | altering the nasty taste of a medicine. —I’ll get to Piccardo… | |
| 02:33 | The failed policy of the Arab Springs, which led us to destroy Qaddafi, | |
| 02:38 | hit Egypt, try to destroy the Syrian government… | |
| 02:44 | By the way, I know Syria very well. I was ordained as a Melkite deacon there; I’ve experienced it, | |
| 02:48 | and I’ve lived there. Life in Syria was more than good, until a certain time, believe me. | |
| 02:53 | Obama’s and the American Democrats’ reckless policy | |
| 02:57 | [Graphic: So Fiano says that Italy’s security personnel is sufficient. Come on… (Emanuele Fiano, Democratic Party’s Chief of Security)] has led to the putrefaction of the Middle East, and |
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| 03:01 | has made the situation absolutely ungovernable so that now, | |
| 03:04 | like a cancer, it’s spread so far as to reach us. | |
| 03:07 | Two things… —Can I say something? —Yes, then we’ll go to Piccardo | |
| 03:12 | If Obama were the only one it would have been comforting; | |
| 03:16 | the problem is that there was Bush before that, | |
| 03:19 | father and son —Yeah, let’s say the US in general… the foolish policy of the USA. —You said | |
| 03:25 | “the Democrats” erase “Democrats”, then —No, but the last phase was the most devastating of all! | |
| 03:26 | [graphic] There’s no one so blind as those who refuse too see reality…our present governments are inadequate at handling the problem. | |
| 03:32 | You know, just to be on the same page. —Because Libya, Egypt, Syria. If the issue could have been | |
| 03:37 | limited to the confrontation for the Iraqi oil it still could have been resolved. | |
| 03:41 | Obama’s policy has spread the infection | |
| 03:44 | to the whole Mediterranean! —So as you see. | |
| 03:47 | Look at Libya, for example; the murder of Qaddafi led to | |
| 03:50 | the effect we’re now seeing, you only have to look at what’s happening on the Libyan coasts. | |
| 03:55 | Well, excuse me, if Libya didn’t have petrol, we wouldn’t be there! The French wouldn’t be there! | |
| 04:01 | The problem. —What are you saying? Are we talking about some barren land? | |
| 04:08 | All of us clapped in agreement with the Arab Springs’ being a farce. | |
| 04:11 | It reveals itself to be an complete farce. | |
| 04:14 | At this moment, paradoxically I’d say, the only guarantee against | |
| 04:18 | this drift to violence is the ones we consider | |
| 04:20 | [graphic] So according to Paolo Crepet, Islamic terrorism is all the West’s fault? Are you joking? | |
| 04:22 | to be “the orthodox, fundamentalist, practicing”, those who adhere | |
| 04:28 | to a particular religious behavior. At times, it even | |
| 04:36 | translates itself aesthetically, at times it doesn’t. I’m a practicing Muslim and I have a beard, | |
| 04:40 | also because I like it, but you can see how I’m dressed right now. | |
| 04:44 | I’d like to point out that in reality, those who truly scare us | |
| 04:47 | [Graphic: Bravo to Meluzzi and Paolo Crepet. It’s the stars and stripes’ policies that triggered the fuse of terrorism.] are people who carry no such imagery. They’re people |
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| 04:51 | who integrated themselves very well and who responded | |
| 04:56 | to the call of secularism to abandon every symbol of religious expression. —It’s undeniable though. | |
| 05:03 | People see it ever more clearly… this shift, indication, maybe even symbolism related to allegiance. | |
| 05:12 | Paragone, I believe that we need to decide whether we want to talk seriously or not —Try it. | |
| 05:16 | If we don’t want to talk seriously, either | |
| 05:19 | we stick to cartoonish positions (like Gino Strada’s or even part of | |
| 05:23 | the things Crepet said on Huffington Post) where it’s all the West’s fault,… —No, but come on! | |
| 05:28 | …which bombed the Middle East —We do have our faults; it’s undeniable! —…that we’re guilty of | |
| 05:32 | everything, and therefore there’s no problem with Islam itself. | |
| 05:35 | Since I’m an attentive connoisseur of Islam, albeit to my regret, | |
| 05:38 | and I respect and fear Islam, I think we should tell things… —I’m sorry | |
| 05:42 | you fear it. —I fear it because I have | |
| 05:43 | [graphic] “A MAN or a FEMALE”, the Islamic world’s concept of women is summed up in this Freudian slip by that “man” who was interviewed. | |
| 05:45 | my good reasons to —I’m sorry [to hear that] —I fear it because I know it. | |
| 05:48 | For starters, Islam is a major judicial system. | |
| 05:51 | It’s not a religion like all the others. It’s not Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, | |
| 05:55 | it’s not even Christianity. It’s a major judicial system. | |
| 05:59 | There’s a system of laws to which one needs to conform his life. Not only that, the states | |
| 06:04 | in which the ummah (Muslim community) resides and is ideally | |
| 06:07 | run by a caliph (a descendant of the prophet) | |
| 06:10 | need to conform as well. Therefore, when Muslims are a minority a society | |
| 06:17 | (like today in the West) they have to adopt an attitude that has certain characteristics. | |
| 06:22 | That will change as the percentage grows, compared | |
| 06:25 | to the general population. Until they’re 2-3% of the population, they behave in a certain way, | |
| 06:29 | when they surpass 20% they start demanding a particular status for their position. | |
| 06:36 | I’ll make no absurd nor ideological arguments, but very concrete ones: | |
| 06:41 | Let’s take for example a crime of crimes in the Islamic world: apostasy (which is the conscious | |
| 06:46 | choice of changing religion in the Islamic world) is punished by the Shari’a | |
| 06:49 | [graphic] My niece works at the EU in Brussels. When she gets out of there alone in the evening she puts on a scarf just in case. | |
| 06:51 | with death, and this is said by the prophet, not me! | |
| 06:54 | Make no mistake, the Koranic text is not subject to interpretation by ulamas, and it’s not | |
| 06:58 | mere tradition because to this day, the ulama college | |
| 07:02 | of the university of Al-Azhar says that it won’t repudiate | |
| 07:07 | the Holy Koran’s content to appease the unbelievers’ requests. | |
| 07:10 | I challenge anyone, Piccardo or whoever else, | |
| 07:13 | to say otherwise —I say otherwise. Can I say otherwise? | |
| 07:17 | I know your teacher Tariq Ramadan’s prerequisites! He sits | |
| 07:21 | at Oxford University. There’s a huge and extremely tough debate going on in the Islamic world, | |
| 07:25 | in which Tariq Ramadan himself is a minority in regards to the possibility of amending the Koran! | |
| 07:30 | It’s not a matter of amending the Koran! —When the Koran becomes modifiable… —Excuse me, | |
| 07:33 | Paragone? —When people are able to modify the Koran like the Christians | |
| 07:36 | modified the Holy Scriptures, it’ll be possible. | |
| 07:39 | Every religion has its own saris, its own uniforms and color. | |
| 07:43 | I don’t get what you’re talking about. | |
| 07:47 | What’s this [got to do with anything?] —A monk in Tibet | |
| 07:50 | has his own color, way of dressing; I don’t think you | |
| 07:53 | can take a Tibetan monk… —Do you know that in radio… —No, excuse me but Islam is a LAW! | |
| 07:56 | Do you want (to understand it)? Excuse me, Crepet, Islam is a law! It’s a law! It’s a law! | |
| 08:03 | What does that mean? But even in the orders… —It’s a law according to which if someone does a | |
| 08:06 | certain thing, such as changing religion (It’s got nothing to do with saris or colors! | |
| 08:09 | Let’s not be silly!) he is punished by death! This is written | |
| 08:13 | in the Koran itself! —May I respond? —It’s written in the Koran! —So the gentleman in front of you. | |
| 08:17 | Tell me it’s not written on the Koran! —We have an expert on doctrine, | |
| 08:21 | a theologian of Islam… First off, I can say | |
| 08:25 | that all you said is true up until a certain point because —Well, tell me up until which point then. | |
| 08:29 | They’re saying those watching from home can’t understand so I won’t go into depth on these concepts | |
| 08:35 | Thank goodness. —You made reference to a classical series | |
| 08:38 | of concepts that are in long-term discussion. | |
| 08:41 | Amending the Koran is not possible —Yeah, that’s what I’m saying! —Comprehending the Koran | |
| 08:44 | in a different way is possible, though. On apostasy, the interpretation we adopt | |
| 08:45 | [graphic] Oh, so I should cover up from head to toe to help men to refrain from attacking me? What are we even talking about? | |
| 08:49 | on this Koranic dictum is that of high treason in | |
| 08:53 | times of war; it’s not the changing of religion —What about blasphemy? | |
| 08:56 | It’s not the change of religion. And blasphemy? —Listen, it’s not like I’m here | |
| 08:59 | to talk about Islam now. —No, tell me! Is it legitimate? —We’re here | |
| 09:02 | to talk about the situation in Europe… —What is blasphemy punished with in the Koran? —…where | |
| 09:05 | we have certain people —What is blasphemy punished with in the Koran? This a specific thing, because | |
| 09:08 | it refers to Charlie Hebdo which wasn’t something absurd, it wasn’t a theory, it was carnage! | |
| 09:13 | How is blasphemy punished in the Koran!? —I’m not here to talk about… —Tell me! No! Respond! | |
| 09:18 | Tell me what blasphemy is punished with in the Koran! If you don’t reply, it’s amendable. Well, I | |
| 09:24 | don’t accept this debate —Don’t accept it, then —I don’t accept it —He won’t reply to me. He won’t. | |
| 09:28 | But it’s undeniable. With death, is it not? —He won’t reply. With death! Come on! Say it, will you! | |
| 09:32 | Come on, it’s with death —Even Crepet knows it! Even Professor Crepet knows it! | |
| 09:35 | Now I’ll make Meluzzi mad and I’ll provoke him some… | |
| 09:38 | I mean, France says “we’re at war”, but when France goes | |
| 09:41 | and provokes, fighting wars in other countries and sowing terror, the French maybe act like they | |
| 09:45 | don’t see it, but when terror gets brought back into their own land | |
| 09:50 | in response, the word “terror” is discovered. | |
| 09:56 | Meluzzi… there are some actual causes… —Do you think I need to | |
| 09:59 | act as a defense lawyer for the office of the | |
| 10:02 | République française? I don’t think so, at all —but when we export war in the name of democracy… | |
| 10:08 | France has done many things. It fought against Boko Haram in Northern Mali ending a situation which | |
| 10:13 | would have become unsustainable. It did foolish things in Libya by eliminating | |
| 10:16 | Qaddafi… —They went to help out their pals —… for reasons to do | |
| 10:19 | with petrol, it did many things… —But Strada is right when he says a child who dies is a child | |
| 10:23 | who dies, wherever… —There’s no doubt! But, see, I personally believe that the error in this debate | |
| 10:27 | lies very much in taking the discussion into the domain of some kind of bookkeeping of madness | |
| 10:33 | of who has caused the most harm. This is a way that is SO far removed from the one that will protect | |
| 10:38 | us from the kind of future that is awaiting us. Because you see, ISIS… here we’re talking about | |
| 10:42 | recruitment and retrieval of Glocks online, but see, in Syrian and Iraqi ISIS | |
| 10:47 | territories there are (according to different estimates) | |
| 10:51 | from 30K to 50K foreign fighters from Europe! | |
| 10:56 | Don’t think that recruitment is done only by, let’s say, | |
| 11:01 | “petty, criminal communication” between lone wolves. | |
| 11:05 | Because you’ve got recruitment in jails, banlieues, in territories… | |
| 11:09 | so we’re talking about an epochal phenomenon that wasn’t caused by some error committed by | |
| 11:16 | one player or the other throughout history. | |
| 11:19 | There’s an entire world which has reached a boiling point, | |
| 11:22 | that is, the exceedingly immense Islamic world, which has about two billion people! | |
| 11:26 | And with which the West has had a serried geopolitical confrontation for 15 centuries! | |
| 11:32 | For 15 centuries! Till the siege of… —Let me go to Crepet… | |
| 11:35 | Either we go back to this as the starting point, or we won’t understand a thing of what lies ahead | |
| 11:39 | in the future of Europe! Forget about France! —I’m seeing Crepet who… —Meluzzi | |
| 11:43 | should also talk about the Muslims who sit in many of our companies’ administrative councils | |
| 11:48 | at Telecom, Mediaset… There have been people of Islamic faith. Do we also need to fear those? | |
| 12:00 | May I say one thing? If we’re talking about those who come from Qatar | |
| 12:04 | or the UAE, they’re certainly among | |
| 12:07 | the first financiers of ISIS, for example! It can be said freely. | |
| 12:11 | Even if they sit in administrative councils! —I couldn’t | |
| 12:16 | give a damn about the position they hold! —Also in oil companies —Of course! —There are things we | |
| 12:20 | should be more precise about. —We need to understand that there’s a huge conflict between Sunnis | |
| 12:24 | and Shiites, and it’s understandable that the UAE would | |
| 12:27 | finance the Sunnis to combat the imbalance brought about in | |
| 12:30 | Iraq and Syria —As you can see, the economy has to do with this. | |
| 12:34 | Sure it has! — But you first said it didn’t. —Nooo… now you seem to be contradicting yourself. | |
| 12:38 | I’m saying that economy is like a mere artificial flavoring, altering | |
| 12:41 | the nasty taste of a medicine! —I see —Crepet, quickly… a radicalization | |
| 12:44 | in the Muslim community, especially among new converts (some are even Italians) | |
| 12:48 | for example? —Absolutely not… Arabs do business just like | |
| 12:53 | the Chinese, the Americans… The US is full of Arabs. | |
| 13:02 | Though if someone were to listen to Trump, he should start to feel uneasy but I don’t get… | |
| 13:07 | What have Arabs got to do with anything? —Piccardo, a question… | |
| 13:10 | What have Arabs got to do with it? —Muslims, Muslims. A question… | |
| 13:13 | Those 700 are not Arabs! Pakistanis are not Arabs! —Muslims, Muslims. —What have Arabs | |
| 13:18 | got to do with it? —Excuse me, halt… —It’s a different thing! —Arabs, too. Arabs, too. | |
| 13:22 | Excuse me, a question… Crepet? | |
| 13:25 | I wonder… I’m asking you (who are a TV host): | |
| 13:30 | you wouldn’t enter a hotel just because it’s owned by Muslims? —Then you’d have to keep out | |
| 13:39 | of almost everywhere —Then I wouldn’t even board Alitalia tomorrow morning by that logic, | |
| 13:43 | since it’s owned by Etihad! —You’ve mentioned Milan, the great hotels and skyscrapers. | |
| 13:48 | Alitalia, too! Forget about hotels! —They were sold to Arabs. | |
| 13:52 | If it’s worth anything, I’m a fan of Juventus, | |
| 13:56 | which has had Libyan shareholders, so… —This has got nothing do with anything now | |
| 14:00 | Does that bother you? —You’re asking if it bothers me? —It didn’t bother Agnelli, I don’t think. | |
| 14:05 | No, um… I don’t know where you got this impression of me to ask such… | |
| 14:09 | No, exactly! Exactly, I’m saying: | |
| 14:12 | SO? So what? —So we’re coexisting, are we not!? They’re not all terrorists! | |
| 14:15 | Well! Maybe coexistence has to be balanced a bit, | |
| 14:19 | because we know that where business is… —But when we need their money to save our Fiat, | |
| 14:24 | they’re fine and dandy… —I’m saying finance makes people sympathize with each other | |
| 14:29 | For that matter, Paragone, the petrol I’ll be putting into my car | |
| 14:32 | tomorrow will have been extracted illegally from | |
| 14:35 | ISIS territories and sold through Turkey! For that matter! So we’re talking nonsense! | |
| 14:42 | It’s public knowledge that Islamic money owns hotels, oil companies and even soccer clubs in England. | |
| 14:49 | So? —It’s got nothing to do with anything —Well, Muslims are human beings, so it’s not like… | |
| 14:53 | Yes, it’s just the way the finance is. Back to the poll: long beard and veil are expressions of: | |
| 14:57 | Human beings first and foremost —They’re very powerful and very important human beings with whom | |
| 15:00 | we should discuss long term —We’re quite divided: A) expression of a religious identity: 41% | |
| 15:04 | B) a challenge to the West’s values: 59%. But I’d say it’s still like half and half, more or less. | |
| 15:07 | I would have chosen A, by the way. I would have! —Expression of a religious identity? | |
| 15:12 | Because it’s the classical expression of religion we should contend with. Especially considering | |
| 15:16 | that we have 1.2 children per couple and Muslims have 5 per couple! —We need to take a break. | |
| 15:20 | So we’ll see what Europe will be like in 50 years! —Up next, we’ll talk about… |
Ah yes, when one is losing the argument just roll out the TMOE excuse to obfuscate the situation and carry water for the Ummah.
He gets it.
‘Safety blanket’ is a good term. There’s really an infinite number of metaphors one could use but none quite come close to the reality of the situation.
Almost like holding up a paper ‘bullet proof vest’, pretending it will save you.
It really is pathological at this point I think, at least with many of them.
Boy, why can’t the UK hold a similar debate on TV. This guy really gets it. What we’d give to have an English equivalent.
May I add to that I doubt this would ever be seen on USA TV due to the leftist controlled MSM and it’s perverted fascination with Islam.
Tariq Ramadan never suggested the Qur’an could be amended.
It puzzling to see that so many people seem to have the impression that he did.
They are wrong.